Chrissy 0:02
Welcome to The Dogs of our lives Podcast. I'm Chrissy Messick, your host and owner of the nature of animals, my dog training and behavior consulting business. Get ready to hear journeys from challenging behaviors to heartwarming successes, and everything in between. Our episodes will feature personal stories from clients, colleagues, and professionals all centered around our favorite animal companion friends. Each episode, you'll gain insights and valuable tools from those that have walked the path that you are on with your dog will discuss mindset shifts, growth, training, tips, lessons learned, and so much more. By the end of each episode, you'll feel inspired, have a deeper understanding of your dog, and walk away with actionable steps to improve both of your lives. Well, today I'm talking with Mary and Julie, the founder and owner of Mary and Julie dog training, we talk about her path dog training, and how her adoption parallels with dogs that get adopted. It's very interesting. We also talk about her involvement in the Michael Vick case, and so many other special nuggets. So I hope you enjoy the episode. Let's dig in. Hello, Mary. And thank you for joining us on our podcast. I'm excited to have you here. And I'm excited to discuss your topic, because I think it's very cool. You know, I think it'll be a fun combination of professional and personal information. So I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing some of your story. But I wanted to welcome you. So Mary, we've known each other for I was just trying to think of how long we've known each other when I started volunteering at the Humane Society. Will the valley gosh, I think that was like 2014 or something like that. It's been a while.
Mary 1:51
Yeah, I was working there. 2015 to 2017. So somewhere in that. Yeah. And that range. 10 years. Yeah.
Chrissy 1:59
Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Well, just a little bit has changed since then. And we'll, we'll go into that. But so thank you for coming here. And can you tell us a little bit about yourself, like where you live? What you do, and then the current puppies in your
Mary 2:16
life? Yeah. Um, so I am I originally grew up in Massachusetts. And then currently, and this is as of 2015. I currently live in the Boulder County, Colorado area. And now so I have a lot of experience working in animal shelters. But currently, I'm working private practice as a dog training and behavior consultant. So I see clients one on one, I do some group sessions as well. Mostly what I do now is fear reactivity and aggression, my favorites. And then on the side, I do some consulting for animal rescues and shelters. And one of my big passion projects right now is the humane alliance of rescue trainers. And so that is a nonprofits and I'm on the board for that organization. And we are focused on bringing free certified force free training to folks who have animals and foster. So through shelters and rescues. So I'm really enjoying that right now. And then Currently, our house is pretty quiet for once, which is good. So we just have our older kiddo buster. He's going to be 13 at the end of the year. And he's a very goofy, I mean, you know him, but he's very goofy, and adorable, supposedly a chow Boston Terrier mix.
Chrissy 3:45
And he's a dirp Yeah, we just Yes. Dirp
Unknown Speaker 3:48
dog very much.
Chrissy 3:51
So along the lines of your path toward dog training and knowing you know what the dog training industry is unregulated. So can you tell us about your education and certifications? Because, in my opinion, my personal opinion, I think a combination of experience and education are important, not just experience only and not just education only, I think you need a really good combination of the two. Yeah, I
Mary 4:15
100% agree with that. It's really interesting that you say that because I have run into some other individuals who maybe have like amazing educations. And right there, that's no small feat. That's really impressive. But I do think for sure, like experience, like hands on experience is really essential. So for my path, I have a Bachelor of Science in psychology and biology. While I was there, I wasn't really doing anything dog specific, but as much as I could I was focusing on animal behavior, specifically applied behavior analysis. And then when I got out of undergrad, my plan was to go on to become board certified in applied behavior analysis, but I ended up kind of just taking a different path and working at the animal shelters like I mentioned. So just specifically in terms of like college, bachelor of science and psychology and biology and then for certifications. So just like you I have a certificate in training and counseling from the Academy for dog trainers, which is Jean Donaldson's program. And then I'm like, what else do I have going on? Oh, yeah, I'm a I'm a CTC so that there's that. I'm also a CPD T K. And that honestly, I don't do you took that test as well, didn't you? Yes, I
Chrissy 5:33
that was my first thing I did. How did you feel about it? It was interesting. Yeah.
Mary 5:37
Okay. That's how I feel also. Okay. It's a multiple choice test. I don't know how I don't personally feel it's super comprehensive. I think probably similar to you, Chrissy because you were doing your CTC at the same time. That's a lot more comprehensive, right? You have to send in videos of your training, multiple tests, right? It's not all multiple choice. Like there's some other other skills that you have to demonstrate. So once you're doing gene Donaldson's program, I think getting a CPD t k is fairly easy. So I did do that, because it's just one of the recognized right, the recognized certifications currently. And then also, I did an additional certification and separation anxiety training as well. The tough thing like you mentioned, it's not really a regulated industry. So I think there's there's just a billion options for what kind of certifications you can get you can get. There are definitely a few that are the gold standard, for sure. Consider Jean Donaldson's program, one of the programs in which, you know, there's a high standard, but I think just like you said, regardless of education, experience is really important. And so I do think there's honestly, like no substitute for working or volunteering at an animal shelter. I think that is really, really huge in terms of just the quantity of dogs, and the different quality, for lack of a better word of dogs that you get, you just get a lot of different types of animals that come into the shelter. And there's just so much variety, I think it's a really nice way to hone in on your animal handling skills, and then also just be able to see a lot of different types of dogs in proximity. So yeah, I think that working in an animal shelter is huge, I think for sure, um, mentoring with a trainer is not a bad idea, just to see what that trainer style is like and see what it's like to work with a client. But I do think that animal sheltering is just something that should kind of be required for people. It's just something that really, really set me up to be successful in all other aspects of animal training is to work in a shelter or volunteer at a shelter. Yeah, I
Chrissy 7:40
completely agree with you. I that's what I did for six years before I started my training business. And it's the best thing that I could have done. And I learned from people that are experts in the field. So I agree. Didn't you do some work with it? ASPCA? Yeah.
Mary 7:54
Um, so I majored in biology and psychology. And when I first got to college, I really wanted I knew I always wanted to work with animals. And the pathway then used to be just like, become a veterinarian. So I spent some time working as a vet tech realized that I hated it. I think it's an amazing job, but it just wasn't for me, the animals don't know that you're trying to help them. So they're very scared and stress. And it just, it was really stressful for me to see that. And that was a while ago now. So the tides have turned in terms of making care, a little bit more cooperative. But at the time, it wasn't really like that. So I just, it just really wasn't for me, it was a high stress environment. And so I ended up I like interned at a zoo in college, I briefly worked as an intern for the Humane Society of the United States and legislation. So I like tried a bunch of different avenues, ended up at animal shelters for a really long time. And then while there, I was connected with the ASPCA, so I got really lucky, I was actually deployed to work on the Michael Vick case. So I worked with a lot of dogs originally from that case a while ago. And then after that, I spent like a short period of time as a professional behavior responder here and they're still get called to do it. It's just really hard work and as disruptive when you have clients because you have to go travel to their shelters, you're gone for like a week or two at a time. But I have done that and I really enjoyed it. It's it's really hard work, but it's it's been awesome. So
Chrissy 9:29
I think people might be interested in hearing more about your experience with the Michael Vick case. I guess just something that people might find of value or helpful to know about that whole dogfighting thing and how the dogs ended up Yeah,
Mary 9:44
okay. Um, so there are definitely books that have been written about this. I personally have not read them. It was a shocking so I had been in the animal welfare and well being sector for a few years at this point. And so in my time, I had done some work where I'd gone into homes with animals experiencing neglect. So I had seen quite a bit, the scale of the Michael Vick case was just really shocking to me. We knew the numbers, right, almost almost 400 dogs were involved in this, I think 360 something, it's been a while. So I can't remember the exact number anymore. But it was just really shocking. So I remember, right, like, at the time, it was an active open case. So we weren't unable to disclose the location of the shelter, for fear of right, like somebody actually coming to the shelter, potentially trying to take some of the dogs or those types of things. Unfortunately, the dogs were also considered evidence, which I hate, I hate that's how it's framed, but they were considered evidence in this case. So there are just a lot of stipulations around that. I remember when we flew out there, I flew by myself, I was not allowed to wear any sort of animal welfare organization logo showing at all. So not just no ASPCA stuff, but nothing that had to do with my shelter, anything. And so they're very, very careful about the details around that the days, were really rewarding, but it was really hard. There were hundreds of dogs, they're all in a pop up shelter situation. And of course, right, we're doing the best we can, but just the sheer volume of animals, in terms of in the ratio of animals to people, it's just really not ideal. So it's probably exactly what you would think, right? Like it's a big warehouse, lots of pop up fencing, and we will do our best to give the animals you know, privacy, right, everyone gets a Karana. They're like lots of lots of things were in place, daily offered enrichment, but it's just no substitute for a dog being in a home or being in a smaller scale situation. I just think at best, it's extremely stressful, honestly. And at worst, right? It's it's much worse than that. And all that being said, right? The ASPCA is an amazing organization. And I think this is just the nature of what these situations look like on that large of a scale. The other thing that was pretty shocking to me, as I of course, I had seen, you know, like hoarding cases, neglect cases, etc. In Massachusetts, right? dog fighting is not super common. And so I had never actually worked with or really like truly, truly, truly been in a situation in which I was interacting regularly with dogs that were coming from dogfighting situations. So it was really hard to see, like, there were there were just a big, big range of different behavior issues you would see. So classically, of course, we had a sexual sector of dogs that really struggled with higher arousal and reactivity, then we had some dogs that were really fearful of people. And for the most part, honestly, a lot of the dogs were very friendly with people because that they were supposed to be right, if you really think about what they were set up to be doing. And they're supposed to be friendly with people. And so there were some dogs as well that actually lived in the home. But a majority of them are like living outside and living in kennels. How do you rehome a dog that has never actually been a pet dog? That's the that's the complicating factor. So that was really difficult. I think, you know, first and foremost, of course, they're trying to make sure everybody's medically healthy. I'm trying to make sure what kinds of behaviors we were seeing. We're, I hate to say it this way, but just for lack of better words, safe, right, and not a liability to rehome into the communities as well. I hate saying it that way. Right. That's but that's just the truth. Right? Like, if we, I think, you know, in an ideal world, we would 100% rehome, every single dog that comes to us, and any sort of situation like that. But just if you think about right, like these dogs are being often used for dog fighting, and a lot of times there's I didn't realize this, but at the time, right, this was over 10 years ago, I didn't really think about the connection between like dog fighting and crime and violence, and drugs and guns. Like there's like a really big connection between all of that. So there's a lot of money at stake when it comes to dog fighting, like more money than I ever even really imagined. So thinking about that, right? These animals were not being treated as pets. They were being treated as like a financial investment, if you will. And so how do you rehome a dog that's never lived in a home and that's been taught to be aggressive towards other dogs, it was just really difficult. So while I was there, I actually went just to be there helping with daily care. So helping with like basic feeding cleaning in Richmond. But while I was there, I don't actually know I don't remember how this quote happened. But I got actually really lucky and this is partially why I got into training as well. I got really lucky there are two people from Boulder humane actually. And so this was like years before I had applied to work at Boulder humane but there are two people boulder humane that I happened to just kind of overlap with and they're like Are we like your animal handling skills? Do you want to come join us to do playgroups and I was like for sure. Like I don't mind cleaning something actually very cathartic about cleaning a kennel. For me anyway. It's like rewarding, right? You like clean the kennel. It looks really nice and like, it's nice to be able to give that to the animal. But I was like, okay, you don't want me to clean anymore. You want me to help with playgroups. I was like, for sure. I ended up doing a lot of behavior work that week that I was there, which was awesome. So I was helping a lot with remedial socialization with playgroups helping with some training and enrichment. So I got really lucky that I was able to do that. And yeah, and that's when I went on my next deployment after that, and I was mostly doing behavior.
Chrissy 15:38
Yeah. So I think without people like you that volunteer and do all that work, you know, the dogs lives would end up very differently. Yeah, the correlation between dogfighting and culture, economics, you know, the financial situation, I think, in order to prevent dogfighting, first of all, the culture needs to change and people need to be able to survive, find ways to survive, you know, given the opportunity, you know, just a different way. That's definitely more kind. And that's by helping the people first so yeah, it's just a hard situation. Okay. Well, that's interesting information. Thank you. You talked, we talked a little bit about your childhood and how you just kind of always had a love for animals? Did you just kind of start out that way? Like learning creating your values and beliefs and your thoughts, feelings and attitude toward animals? Did it just come kind of naturally to you? Or was it shaped in a way? In your Yeah, it's
Mary 16:35
a good question. I'm so going to like talking with my therapist about certain things. It's interesting. And like, I'm adopted, and I spend my whole I've spent my whole life like speaking for those who don't have like choices and autonomy and stuff like that. So that's an interesting parallel. I feel like I've kind of always been like that. It's interesting because my family, not that they don't care about animals, like they've always had, like dogs growing up and various other pets. But animal welfare is not something that anyone in my family does for like a career path or even like a hobby. But when I was younger, my mom, so she did, she ran an HIV AIDS support group. And so she was really active in the community doing like soup kitchens and the support groups and like having parties at her house for that kind of stuff. She I think that she had like a really big role to play with just my desire to help others, whether they be like humans or animals. Yeah,
Chrissy 17:32
just any being right. Yep. Okay. Okay. So from the time we met at the Humane Society of Boulder Valley, a lot has changed for you, then especially, you know, now we're gonna get a little bit more personal. But can you talk about how your adoption and that whole journey, and the search has affected your relationship with dogs and your outlook on dogs and animal welfare in general? Yeah.
Mary 17:54
Um, so after I left boulder humane to go private practice, I feel like a whirlwind of several years happens. So I had a lot of transitions going on. So like one of them being my own business. And then I ended up looking a little bit more into my adoption history. So I was adopted from South Korea when I was just three months old. And I always grew up like my parents, they did a really great job of this, but I grew up never feeling unloved or unwanted. The way that they framed everything was your mother, your birth mother loved you so much that she gave you up to have a better life. And I do know a lot of other adoptees who don't necessarily feel that way. I think it's a really complex situation. But I never really felt sad about it. Honestly, I think I also just never really thought deeply about it. And I don't think I was really ready to when I was younger. And then as I got older, and this actually happened via meeting somebody else at Boulder humane, one of my good friends, she got me a 23andme for I think, for Christmas. And she's like, Wouldn't it be interesting to see if you have relatives and I was like, Sure. I don't know how much I care about this. So I did the 23andme. And I think the closest I had which is pretty classic for adoptees is like a fifth or sixth cousin, which I'm like, Chrissy, I feel like you're probably my sixth cousin. So I was like, okay, that's not very helpful. But it made me start kind of thinking a little bit more about like, my culture and my heritage, my roots. And then I ended up going back to Korea for the first time. 2019 And yeah, I so like, the more I've looked into my culture, my heritage, like the history, adoption is really tricky. And then of course, you know, the situation in which animals are adopted or purchased or what have you, is not necessarily exactly the same thing. But I think there are a lot of parallels there. And, you know, I think some people are like, That's ridiculous, but I do actually think there's a lot of parallels. You know, like so for me I am happy that I'm adopted. But it also comes with a lot of grief. It comes with a lot of grief for not having access to my culture, my history, my heritage, my I have a wonderful adoptive family. But that being said, right, I still lost access to like my birth mother and my blood relatives. So there's just a lot of like, loss and grief there. And while I am happy and grateful for you know, for a lot of different things, I still think it can be you can hold both emotions, right, you can feel grateful, but you can also feel grief. And so the thing that I think about often too, is, like I was adopted, when I was three months old, I had no choice. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, necessarily, right. Like, I don't know what my life would have been like if I was in Korea. But there's a lot of cultural differences there. So my imagination tells me it would not have been as privileged as it is here in the US. And so the things I think about, right, like, regardless of whether or not I'm doing better than I would have, if I had grown up in Korea, I still had a lot of like autonomy taken from me. And it's traumatic, right, like you're a baby and you you lose your mother. And yes, you have another family, but they're still not like biologically, your family. And I think about those things a lot when it comes to people adopting dogs or buying dogs, because the dogs and other animals, right, other companion animals, they don't really have any choice at all, where they go to or who they're with, or, you know, they just get a lot of their choices taken away from them. I think about that very deeply on an emotional level. And it's really affected how I counsel clients and how I talk to them as well about their relationships with their pets, just because we control like, really like most aspects of their lives, like even as much as like when you're allowed to go to the bathroom for dogs, right, who don't have a backyard or a dog door. So I just, you know, I think about that a lot where a lot of autonomy is taken away, and what can we do as ethical guardians to help bring some of that back to them while they're in our care?
Chrissy 22:05
Yeah, I think a big thing that we as humans don't think about, we just think we adopt a dog, and they just kind of fit right into our lives. And we reckon along, and that is rare. When that happens. I think some dogs, they just are like, okay, let's just let's keep moving on. But there's a lot of dogs, particularly with the dogs that we work with, where there's a lot of decompression time, there's yeah, there's a lot of time where when you bring a new dog into your home, I always just say, please don't start training, just be friends with your dog, you know, start a relationship, don't ask anything of them, just get to know them, and let them be them. And I think that's a huge part that's missed is we need to give dogs the time to get comfortable with their environment, they have these feelings and emotions that, you know, they're not so obvious about them. They're very subtle. And so I think as guardians, we need to have a lot more awareness about that. And and that makes sense how that would make you with your background and history just being very sensitive to that as well.
Mary 23:12
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I agree. I think we like I don't know, a lot of times when I meet a client for the first time again, usually I'm dealing with what people would identify as like behavior problems or behavior issues, even though I wouldn't necessarily describe them that way. But people are frustrated, which is totally understandable. But I do think the expectations are sometimes just way off, where they want their dog to be a certain way. And then when you talk to them, Well, why did you get a dog? Right? And it's just very interesting to hear what people say when you ask them that type of question. Whether they were looking truly for like a companion to have a good relationship with or they were looking for like a robot that unfortunately, right, the latter seems to be somewhat common. I think it's changing more but trying to change people's perspectives and viewpoints on that, because behavior generally does not involve instant gratification. And it takes time to form a good relationship and connection with another living being.
Chrissy 24:09
Yes, definitely. Well said, Mary, you live with Buster share with our audience how Buster has helped you slow down. Yeah, so
Mary 24:18
actually, I have you to credit allows us to actually, I remember years ago and it was sometime soon after we had met. We were just talking about what animals can teach us and why they come into our lives. And I was just thinking of things a little bit more deliberately. When I had my first dog a long time ago, Lucy rest in peace. You know, I got her right out of college. I had always loved animals, but I didn't really know what I was doing. And I did the best I could but you know, I didn't think as thoughtfully as I do now about just why we have animals that come into our lives and what that can teach us So I was talking with you at one point. And then it made me think a lot about Buster and having him in my life and what he can teach me. And so one thing that I have struggled with, I mean, I think I still do, but I'm getting a lot better now. But one thing I have struggled with, and I think, you know, growing up in New England, it's a very hustle and bustle lifestyle. And it's like a badge of honor if you work yourself to death, which I no longer am subscribing to. Having Buster when I originally got him about eight years ago now, I was definitely in a much different place than than I am now. I had Buster I was over scheduled with clients, I'd be running around from thing to thing. I also had a lot of other activities planned, I just felt like I was just running around a lot, still taking time with him and spending time with him. But it just felt like I was always rushed. And then after speaking with you, and then just a little bit more kind of introspection into what was going on with me. And then at one point, I have like two knee surgeries. So that forced me to slow down. But I realized, right, like, what is the point of life if you're just rushing through it? And this is super corny, but it is about the journey, right? It's not about the destination, which you know, we say a lot. But what does that really mean? With Buster, he is very, he's a very deliberate dog yet also forced me to slow down in general, like literally, so on walks, he He's much older now. But even when I first got him on walks, he's very slow, deliberate, like, so check everything out, like to take everything in. I remember, I'd be like, Oh my god, fine, I will do this, because this is what you like, but I'm not enjoying this. And I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna suck it up and like, be on the walk with you and let you do you. And then over time, I've been like, okay, my life with you is limited, right? I could I could die tomorrow or Buster could die tomorrow. Hopefully neither of those things happen. But life is limited, right? I have really tried to change my perspective with Okay, when we're out on a walk, instead of being secretly frustrated that he's sniffing this tree for five minutes. Maybe I can also slow down and like, look around and like, what do I see. And you know, our neighborhood is beautiful, right. And there's a lot of things that I think I missed, I've missed out on previously just trying to rush through things and get by. So he's helped me slow down literally a lot. I think the other thing that has been really nice that he's taught me and our time together is not over booking myself. I would just overbooked myself, not just with work, but just with, again, like activities in general. And then I'd be like, Alright, I have to be home, because I need to make sure that I'm hanging out with Buster too. But it would be like this really forced and scheduled type of thing. And I've realized it life does not have to be like that. And so I have a lot more free time now. And of course I have like a, you know, I'm lucky, right? Because you and I we can self schedule. Maybe me more than us since I don't have two children. But you know, I have I have a lot of autonomy, which I'm really grateful. Now I did not used to. And so with making my own schedule, I actually am doing a much better job at slowing things down. I think the tough thing is sometimes when you're in like corporate lifestyle or in a job that's like a regular nine to five job, you do have less time, right because you're in an office. But I do think there's a tricky like slippery slope when you're self employed too. Because you can just endlessly fill your time with a bunch of random stuff, right? Like, oh, I need to work on my website, or like do this, all this other stuff, because the task list never ends. And so that's the thing I also need to remember is that the to do list actually never ends. And so you could be stressing out about getting it done, but it's always going to be there. And it will be there tomorrow. So why not take a little time today, as long as your major responsibilities are done, to just like slow things down and be a little bit more thoughtful and meditative about what you have going on around you.
Chrissy 29:07
Oh, I love that so much. And yeah, I can see Buster just coming into your life and being like okay, Mary, here's what you need to learn.
Mary 29:17
Definitely, definitely, yeah.
Chrissy 29:20
And he's so good at it. I just love him so much. Yes,
Speaker 1 29:22
he does not care. No, no. And I
Chrissy 29:26
remember those conversations that we've had. I definitely remember those conversations.
Mary 29:30
Yeah, I think they're really they're really helpful. I I've always been drawn to animals like we've talked about quite a lot. But until that conversation with you actually, I haven't always been super thoughtful about like, why and like, what is the purpose and what can I learn about myself via working with animals so that was always a really thoughtful game changer for me having that those discussions with you? Oh, I
Chrissy 29:53
love that. Okay, so I think people are curious about the day in the life of a dog living with a dog trainer. But so can you share a little bit about what it has looked like with busta over the years? Because I know it started out one way, and now it's a different way. And you know, dog trainers are people too, and we don't train our dogs 24/7
Mary 30:14
Yeah, um, one thing I love about you, Chrissy is that you and I feel like we try to have a healthy balance here. So I do know a lot of dog trainers, and there's nothing wrong with us, this is just not my style. I know a lot of dog trainers who live eat, sleep and breathe dog training. And then they also have dogs that are really, really HYDrive also where they have like really intense training needs, or they really enjoy enjoy doing agility or some like high level high level activities. That is not for me, I love dog training. The bigger thing for me more than quote unquote training, like we've talked about is having a good relationship and living in harmony. And what does that look like? Well, it isn't necessarily always skills training or behavior modification per se. So for me and my lifestyle, when I got Buster specifically, I actually even though I'm active, I didn't want a super active dog. So Buster is very, he's pretty, he's pretty lazy couch potato way, he likes to go out and be off leash, and he loves hiking and those types of things. But it's not extremely difficult for me to tire him out, which is what I was looking for. So for me, I actually am very much not a person who brings training home with me, and the sense that you'd look at like skills training, or agility training, or that type of training training that I do with Buster at home, I'm more focused on Him being happy. Not that that you know that training is definitely a means to that right to achieving that. But for me, I'm more focused on meeting his emotional needs. And of course, his physical mental needs, all that kind of stuff. But the training we do so at home, you will not see us it's really funny people will when people hear that you're a dog trainer, I don't know if you get this too. But people sometimes say, oh my god, your dog must be so well behaved. And I'm like, Well, what do you define as well? For me, he's well behaved, right? Like Buster does not bark at the door being knocked on, he doesn't bark at the doorbell. He doesn't get upset when people come in. He's got a dog door and he's go goes out in the yard, we live in a high traffic, high foot traffic area, he isn't reactive towards people. So in all those senses, perfect right, in terms of so well behaved. I feel like people have a specific definition of what that means. And so is he 100% walking on a loose leash like a robot? No, but I don't care about that. Right. So So for me, that's only training that we've really worked on. So he knows basics, but on a daily basis, or weekly basis, really, like the only thing that I prioritize with him in terms of like true training is cooperative care stuff, because I want to make sure that he's comfortable with that. And so we've done a lot of work on him voluntarily getting his nails dremeled and trend, voluntary handling grooming that kind of stuff. Otherwise, he does not do any other training. Because where he's fits into our lifestyle, and he's safe and he's comfortable. So right like if I if there was a need I had where he was, let's say he was jumping all over people. And I had guests over a lot who hated that, or who were it was a safety concern than what I work on it. Yes. But that's not a need. For me. That's just an example. He does not jump on people. Maybe once in a while he'll like try to do a an upward momentum thing, but he doesn't actually jump. And that only happens when he sees like you and maybe five other people. Everybody else he's pretty indifferent towards. So yeah. So from training, that's what that looks like. And then in terms of daily basis with him. So we this, this might be a controversial topic, but the because he doesn't have reactivity, and we don't live in an area that is dangerous in terms of wildlife. And he's a bigger dog and we have a dog door and that stays open 24/7. And I actually really love that option for him because he gets to go to the bathroom when he wants to. Or if he just wants to go outside and hang out and sit in the sun or surf the grass, he can choose to do that. So that's really nice. I like that for his autonomy. Even though we have that yard for him. We religiously will take him on at least two walks a day. And one of those walks at least I don't know four to five times a week is off leash. So those are two things and it does not matter. It's like a blizzard outside Buster likes the cold. We are suiting up and we are going out with them. So if it's super hot, obviously we'll make adjustments. We won't take them out until it's later. But we pretty religiously take him out at least twice a day. So we get at least like an hour and a half or so of some sort of something every day. And again on the days where he's getting off leash, then he'll just get like a walk later. But that's those The big ones. And then of course Buster is really into food. And he really actually like loves. He loves enrichment. So we'll do nose work with and without treats or food. And then he has a whole assortment of food puzzle toys and Chews and things that he works on that we cycle through. So it depends on what you want to count as training, but from like a training skill standpoint, just the cooperative care, the other stuff is just to kind of, you know, just make him happy. And then this is super extra, but because he's really old now we do also occasionally get bodywork done with.
Chrissy 35:35
Yeah, that's so important. Some it's really funny
Mary 35:37
people have interesting responses to that.
Chrissy 35:41
Oh, I'm sure you pay for
Mary 35:43
your dog to get massages. And we're like, yeah, we know.
Chrissy 35:46
No, it's so important. There's so much under undiagnosed discomfort and pain that dogs have that they can't express very, in very obvious ways. And so that's actually very important.
Mary 35:58
Yeah, definitely. So we like it, we, you know, I obviously, I think you must, you must run into this too. I feel like sometimes as a trainer, once you see things, you can't unsee them and then it's hard not to just be haunted 24/7 But all the things you should and could be doing with your dog. Because you quote unquote, know better that I struggle with that sometimes. But we you know, in our house, like John and I, my partner and I, we're good at reading body language. And we know Buster very well at this point. So we know when there's something happening, that is not normal for him, or when we haven't met his needs. So like, he'll let us know, right? Like, hey, you haven't taken me out on my second walk yet. And I'd actually like to go sooner than later. So he'll like come to the couch and like put his head on your lap and just silently stare into your eyes. And we're like, Alright, dude, we we get it, you have a need that is unfulfilled. So it's our job to fulfill it right? Because you He relies on us for pretty much everything. And it's a big responsibility. So the the bigger thing we're doing rather than skills, tricks, manners, A is he comfortable and happy in our home and safe around others? Yes. You know, that's the top priority and then be what are the things that we can do to help add to his happiness and his overall well being?
Chrissy 37:12
Yep, that's perfect. Now, that's exactly how we are ginger. We don't really do any formal training. The only kind of training we do is opportunistic training. Yes, she is dark, reactive, and has a little bit of Stranger danger. And so we gradually introduce her to people and we do Dog Dog stuff. You know, while we're on walks and with people who are interested, but that's kind of really the only stuff we do and then just making sure she's happy. And that looks like a lot of different ways that you've you know, the you've just gone over. Yeah, I think it's interesting how trainers cohabitate with their dogs.
Mary 37:46
Yeah, yeah, I know, a lot of trainers who do so much training and then I feel a little bad about it, because we don't do that as much. But I all you know, depends on the person on the dog, too.
Chrissy 37:57
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you've also done some great work, riding with Marc Bekoff, who is a biologist, ecologist, behavioral ecologist and writer. And he was a professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Colorado in Boulder for 32 years. So can you tell us what you have learned from each other while working together? And I guess just what that was like,
Mary 38:23
Yeah, I don't know what Mark has learned for me. I should ask him that question.
Chrissy 38:27
Get him on the podcast,
Mary 38:30
an ego boost.
Unknown Speaker 38:32
He,
Mary 38:33
he's awesome. It's really funny. I when I was growing up, I was really into reading I still am now. But a lot of the books I bought like were by Jane Goodall. And Mark also wrote a bunch of books with her and I read a lot of books by Mark. So I knew all about him as a child. And then I got older, I kind of just like, forgot about him when I moved to Boulder. I didn't actually remember realize that he lived in Boulder. And then I met him very randomly. And I I'm not very I don't like to, like fan be like a fangirl on people. So I met him and I started was like, very just like, hello. And I was just very nonchalant. And then he ended up finding out and this was not like my choice, but somebody that I was with was like calling attention to us. He found out I was a trainer. And then he started asking me questions about training. And we were talking about essentially, we were talking about forced free training versus correction based training and aversive use of trading right. And then he was like you we should meet for coffee and I was like, really? Okay. Oh my god. So we met for coffee. The very first article we wrote together was the title of it was he wanted it to be catchy and it definitely was. Should dogs be shocked choked or pronged and it was a really long essay just about the use of a versus and training and the argument against them. And it really was like very like evidence based and factual base. But that was the first essay we wrote together. And now we've written like over a dozen together, he's really interesting, because although he's really focused on dogs these days, and that hasn't always been his focus. And so it's been nice for me to spend time with him and talk to him more about the bigger picture. And it's really made me also reevaluate how I work with and interact with and treat other animals, not just companion animals. So that's been like huge for me and helped me question like, what I'm what I'm doing and those other aspects of my life, that's cool. I know.
Chrissy 40:35
I think also for me, it kind of started with dogs, and then has just to all beings, you know, all all non human animals. You know, they have, they all have their own innate smartness. And you go about life. And I think it's important that we respect you know, all beings. Yeah, definitely.
Mary 40:53
And the other thing that I really like about my work with Mark is that we primarily just write about canines, and like companion dogs together. But he likes to also look at how dogs can bridge like the empathy gap. So people thinking about how they treat their pets, and how that extends to other animals around us, whether it be animals, quote, unquote, considered like pests, like prairie dogs and Boulder, right? That kind of stuff. So that's something that I've really enjoyed about working with him. Yeah,
Chrissy 41:21
that's great. Can you tell us where we can find those articles?
Mary 41:26
Yeah. So they're all on psychology today. So if you mark has his own column on Psychology Today, it's titled animal emotions. And so those are all those are all there. And he writes about a bunch of other fun stuff that's not just about dogs, but definitely has a fair share of articles about dogs. Okay, perfect.
Chrissy 41:45
Thanks. Okay. So what are the challenges in the dog dog training world? I know, it's a loaded, big question. But what would you say are just like a couple of the main challenges in the dog training world? And how has this affected you personally? And I guess professionally, if you want to talk about that, too?
Mary 42:03
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's a loaded question.
Chrissy 42:07
I know, maybe just pick one thing that you really, I
Mary 42:11
would say, if here's my shortlist is one, I'm continually I don't want to say battle. But for lack of a better word, battling the force free versus a versus dog training methodologies, that's really, really hard. It's really tough to be a force free trainer who's not using like fear, pain or intimidation. I feel like that's like one of the number one reasons dog trainers who are forced to get really emotionally burnt out and have compassion fatigue is that we're just we're constantly either having to defend our techniques or defend ourselves, or what we do professionally, when a lot of us are like, we're very, very, very qualified and certified to be doing what we're doing. So that's really tough. The other thing that's really hard, too, is just picking up the pieces, when we are taking care of clients or dogs who have had that type of training, sometimes, those are really tough. And I think also educating clients can just be really hard. So not just the disagreement between trainers, but also just with clients and their expectations. Which leads me to also this is the second aspect, which is similar people wanting instant gratification for training. That's really hard. It's really hard to set expectations. I think we like live in a society these days, where things happen really quickly, you can literally click once on Amazon and something gets delivered to your door in an hour. People just they want instant gratification. And especially when it comes to when they're dealing with behavior issues that they deem problematic. They want to fix, they want to fix ASAP. Trying to remind people or educate people that that takes a lot of time can be really tough. The last thing for me that's big, a big ticket item is just the aspect of having a relationship that's holistic with your dog, people will often hire a trainer and they just want to work on XYZ skills, or XYZ behaviors. And when it's much, much bigger than that, right? Like there's just a lot more that goes into it, which we can talk about. But there's a lot more that goes into it. So I think sometimes people can get frustrated or feel discouraged when you have to explain to them and educate them on the fact that there's a lot more involved than just teaching a skill. And in fact, that's like the smallest percentage of what I do with clients these days is teaching skills, we still do that. But most of the time, it's like, relationship centered. Yeah,
Chrissy 44:30
I would say that's a huge thing is we're not going to just stop the behavior. No, it's not going to just be a quick fix. I mean, there are trainers that do that. That's fine, but that's not how I like to work. I like to have a good healthy relationship, you know, with clients and their animals. And those are the people that like to work with me. So yeah, so we do work on those behaviors and those skills, but it's a lot of working on mindset and changing beliefs, values, like it's so deeply ingrained in us that it takes time to work through that, you know, I mean, just think about how hard it is for you to change a behavior that you have, like for me, like so hard. So hard to change just one of my little silly behaviors, you know, it takes time, and I have to figure out why am I doing this and then, you know, teach myself something else to do. But it's the same thing like it is a holistic, or it's a very functional approach that over time helps develop the relationship. So I, I feel you marry?
Unknown Speaker 45:34
Yeah, I
Mary 45:35
try to stay positive. But definitely on a personal level, I periodically struggle with compassion, fatigue and burnout fairly regularly. It's just hard. It's funny, because like that, that was part of the reason that I stopped working in animal shelters, is because I just was like, wow, this is emotionally really exhausting and taxing. And, and like, I struggled, I did it for a really long time. And I just, I couldn't do it anymore. So I was like, Okay, I still want to work with animals, but I'll go private practice, and you just run into different emotional exhaustion during private practice. So that's something that's personally been tough for me at times. Well, similar to
Chrissy 46:13
vet techs and veterinarians, it's emotionally exhausting. Do you think therapy has helped with this part of your this aspect of your work therapy, for
Mary 46:21
sure has helped another resource that's really helped me a lot. Have you heard of Jessica Dolce? I don't think so. She's, she's a licensed social worker. And she, I believe she is a trained therapist as well. But she actually just works with folks who are in the animal industry. So she's got some online courses about compassion, fatigue, and she does one on one coaching as well. So I did some work with her that was really huge, because it was just super specific to my job. And then I think, yes, just seeing like a regular therapist to help with like, the general life skills, and translating that to work has helped a lot too, for sure. It's hard working in animal like in the animal industry, because it can feel like you're like really isolated and on an island by yourself. So like leaning on colleagues and friends, right. But I definitely encourage anybody who works with animals on any sort of regular basis to see like a therapist or look up compassion, fatigue resources. And finally, I feel like that's becoming more popular now. Because when I when I was were, again, when I was like working as a vet tech, which was I don't know, oh, my gosh, so long ago now, like, almost 20 years ago, that was not ever mentioned at all right?
Chrissy 47:35
Yeah, no, I think it's becoming more and more, quote unquote, acceptable. Yeah, just overall, in general, I mean, you've kind of already covered this. But if there's something else that comes up for you, how has everything you've gone through changed how you approach dog training? It sounds like you went from working on straight just behaviors to looking at a more functional, holistic approach of the relationship as well.
Mary 48:01
Yeah. That for sure. And then I think, you know, as I get older, I think I'm becoming like a softer person in a way where I and this is also like, my work with Mark to just kindness brings about kindness. And so if we don't need to scare our dogs, or hurt them, or intimidate them to train, and you can do the same thing, right, you can achieve the same results without using any of those techniques. Like why should you and so just in general, like I've been trying to live like a more kind life. I know, that's like kind of a nebulous generalization. But that's like one thing that I'm really trying to focus on these days, especially as I get older. And then I think, again, like a really big thing for me is providing choice and autonomy wherever I can, to companion animals is super, super important, which isn't necessarily like a training thing. But I do think that it positively affects behavior. If you can give autonomy and you know, like an example I like, like to give to clients. I mean, there's a lot of examples. And Chrissy, I'm sure you have your own too. But like COVID is a really relevant example of how we had all of our hobbies taken away. And we weren't allowed to, like go out in public or like do anything, right. We had a lot of choices removed from us, which people as we saw, did not respond well to, you know, so that's one piece. And then I know like we both went through the academy, but I remember a gene gave an example once of like, what do you like to do for fun? Can you imagine like sitting in a room all day with nothing to do? You know, your person gets home and you have these expectations? But how is that realistic when no needs have been met? So really trying to remember like choice and autonomy is huge for wellbeing and emotional health. And that's like a really big emphasis for me. Yeah, that's super important.
Chrissy 49:51
And it's still we're seeing the effects of COVID today. Yes. With humans and dogs. For sure. Yeah. So Is there any nugget of wisdom or anything else that you would like to share with our audience or with someone who is going through the same journey? Okay, so
Mary 50:08
I think from maybe from like a dog training and behavior standpoint, and I keep talking about dogs, but I think this really does apply to like all companion animals, we overlook a lot of the other guys to like cats, rabbits, like small animals, other kinds of companion animals. But I think if people haven't heard of or looked into it, Linda Michaels has what she calls the humane hierarchy. And it's this nice pyramid that kind of lays out all of the dogs, quote, unquote, needs, and it prioritizes it appropriately, which I really like to show to clients. So I think that's a nice resource for people. The other thing that I really like, So there used to be what was called the five freedoms for animals in captivity, but that has since been expanded upon by like, American Humane. And so now it's known as like the five provisions and animal welfare aims, I believe. So again, similar vibe. So that humane hierarchy, it just gives you a good idea of like, all the things that you need to be looking for to meet an animal's needs. And honestly, this can totally be applied to children and partners and spouses, like everybody. So I really like that. I think that's awesome. And then for anyone going through the same journey, I mean, I'm always available. Christy, I know you are, too, you're always super welcoming and open, you should hit us up if you have any questions or need anything. But yeah, if anybody randomly listened to this podcast, who was adopted, I'm happy to be a resource, because I've definitely gone through a lot with that. And that journey is ongoing. So always happy to touch touch base with anybody if they're interested.
Chrissy 51:48
Wonderful. And so I know some people are gonna want to reach out to you what is the best way they can reach out to you for training or to talk about adoption, or the heart that you were talking about, um,
Mary 52:00
so Hearts website. So there, it's called the humane alliance of rescue trainers, but the website is just rescue trainers.org. And so that's, that's a really nice resource, you can reach out to us, there's contact info on our website. And then for me, I really need to come up with a catchy name. But this is what it is right now. It's just with my website. It's just my name. It's Mary anjali.com and a RYANGILLY. So you can go to my website, and all my contact info is there. And I definitely would love to hear from people. So I know you were to Chris. Yeah. That's one of the things I love about you is how open you are and welcoming and willing to collaborate with people. So I love
Chrissy 52:44
just talking with people. Yeah, it's the podcast. Okay, thank you so much, Mary.
Mary 52:51
Thank you.
Chrissy 52:52
Oh, well, there you have it. There's Mary's story. I hope it connects with you. And I hope you learned some valuable insights today. If you feel like you want to connect with her, you have that information. So please go ahead and do that. I know she's totally open to that. Dogs truly are special beings and can change lives. If we're open to what they have to teach us. This not only impacts you and your dog but can also make a positive impact on the world. If you're finding value in this podcast. The best way to support us is by leaving a review up to five stars and sharing it with your family, friends and fellow dog lovers around the world. Lastly, I'd love to connect with you. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook at the nature of animals and visit my website at WWW dot the animal nature.com Until next time, be curious, show compassion and have courage.
