Chrissy 0:00
Chris, welcome to The Dogs of our lives Podcast. I'm Chrissy Messick, your host and owner of the nature of animals. My dog training and behavior consulting business, get ready to hear journeys from challenging behaviors to heartwarming successes and everything in between. Our episodes will feature personal stories from clients, colleagues and professionals, all centered around our favorite animal companion, friends. Each episode, you'll gain insights and valuable tools from those that have walked the path that you are on with your dog. We'll discuss mindset shifts, growth, training, tips, lessons, learned and so much more. By the end of each episode, you'll feel inspired, have a deeper understanding of your dog and walk away with actionable steps to improve both of your lives. Today, I talk with Jamie Flanagan, who is a friend and colleague. She specializes in working with dogs that show aggressive behaviors, who are sensitive and fearful as well. She also has a specialized board and train program in Broomfield, Colorado called training wheels. We talk a lot about her childhood growing up, and how it affects what she does today. We also talk a lot about people living and working with dogs that show these type behaviors, because it can be tiring and it can be stressful, and so Jamie's very good at working with these kind of dogs, and she's also a mentor of mine. So I hope you enjoy the show and let's dig in.
Chrissy 1:23
Well hello Jamie Flanagan, hey Chrissy,and thank you so much for being on my podcast. I know initially you were a little resistant, but we just have important stuff to discuss, so I'm so glad that you're here to share your knowledge and everything that you've learned by working with dogs, your specialty of dogs. Thank you for having me. And I don't really think that I was resistant to hang out with you. I just am a shy person, so get me to talk. No, you are shy, but we'll have fun. So we have known each other. We were just discussing this for about probably eight years you had just left the Humane Society of Boulder Valley when I had and I had just started volunteering there, basically, you've really taught me a lot about, you know, dogs that have aggressive behaviors and working with them. And you know, you were my mentor in that area for quite a bit of time. And I enjoyed going to training wheels, which is your place of business, and hanging out there and just talking and learning. So thank you for all of that, by the way, doing round table discussions. Yes.
Chrissy 2:30
So anyway, do you just want to tell us a little bit about yourself, like where you live, what you're currently doing, and the current dogs in your life? Well,
Jamie 2:39
I am located in Broomfield, Colorado, and my business is called training wheels, so I am very lucky that I get to live on site where I work, which is really helpful when we've got a business that is open every day of the year. And as far as my own dogs, I am currently living with a naughty Pomeranian mini Aussie thing named ruffian, and a semi feral dachshund named rival. Most of my dogs have had names inspired by altercations, not that they are fighting dogs, but I do enjoy dogs that are spicy and sassy. So that's kind of the name theme that I run with.
Chrissy 3:24
I know you have a soft spot for dachshunds and you and I know why you love working with you know, the more quote, unquote difficult dogs, just because that you like a challenge and you get bored with anything else. I
Jamie 3:37
get bored with the puppies. Yes, that's true. Yeah. Okay,
Chrissy 3:41
so we're just gonna go back a little bit in time, and I ask everyone this question, because I just feel it's so important, you know, to understand where you know we come from in our you know, beliefs and attitudes toward dogs and animals. But just tell us a little bit about your childhood growing up, and what'd you learn about your values, beliefs and how they shaped your thoughts, feelings and attitudes toward animals?
Jamie 4:03
Okay, that is a very big question. I know what comes to mind most, as far as formative years is I grew up in an in home daycare. My mom ran a daycare out of our home, and most of the kids that she cared for were were quite a bit younger than me. I was so I was in third to sixth grade during this time, and she was caring for infants and toddlers primarily. So she did not expect me to help with caring for these little guys, which is, which was very nice, but I spent a lot of time hiding from the babies in my room, off by myself, telling myself stories, and I I played in the grass in the yard with little dinosaurs. So I did not play with Barbies. I played with dinosaurs. And if I could be a dinosaur trainer instead of a dog trainer, that would be my dream. Okay,
Chrissy 5:00
you just need to take the place of Chris Pratt. You know, in Jurassic World, better job, I promise. And you would use the clicker correctly in that scene, which drives me nuts, squirrel moment. So I know we have to talk about this, the clicker in Jurassic World with Chris Pratt being an animal trainer. And I know it drives all the trainer's nuts, because he uses it the totally wrong way. He uses it to get the dinosaur's attention. So if I were to be training a dinosaur, here's how I would do the you know, order of events. I would give the dinosaur a cue to get the behavior, and then as soon as the dinosaur did the behavior, I would click to mark the behavior to let the dinosaur know. Yes, that's the behavior that I like, and your reinforcement is coming, which is some sort of food. So that's how you properly use a clicker. You don't just click, click, click, click, click to get the dinosaur's attention. I know it drives all the trainers nuts. I
Jamie 5:57
was quietly hiding away from people during that time, and that had a huge influence on how I interact with the world now.
Chrissy 6:06
So did you have dogs growing up? Though we
Jamie 6:09
did, but I was not responsible for their care. So I loved animals, but I wasn't really around a bunch of different kinds of animals or really involved in dog culture until much later.
Chrissy 6:23
So it sounds like like you weren't taught anything about, you know, the animals growing up, but it seems like you connected with them more than humans.
Jamie 6:35
Definitely. I think that's true of a lot of dog trainers and people in the animal industry, we tend to be fairly introverted and gravitate to the animals rather than the people. I am not an exception to
Chrissy 6:49
that. Yeah. So as you grew up, you just kind of learned your own path in interacting with animals. I guess through your own experiences, you learn that and your values and beliefs with them versus being taught by somebody growing up,
Jamie 7:03
I would say so, and I didn't realize that I wanted to be in the animal industry. Initially, I had a different career prior to learning about dogs, so I went to school for photojournalism, and I thought I was going to be bringing about change through amazing photo stories of social issues, but that requires a lot of connection with people, to trust you and open up to you and be able to document their lives. So that was not a very good fit for me, and it took me a little while after that, but I did figure out that dogs were a better fit. Okay,
Chrissy 7:41
well, perfect. That leads us right into, why did you go into dog training? And just maybe, you know, tell us about your path career into that, starting from your photography and going into your dog training career.
Jamie 7:54
Um, well, I don't know that the my, my first career in photography, had much to do with that transition, and other than it not being a good fit, but I had an opportunity shortly after college to live in the Caribbean, which was amazing. I was there for nine months and trying to figure out what else I could do what was next. And while I was there, I did some volunteer work with the communities of dogs and cats that were around the area that I lived, track, neuter, release primarily, I decided to take some online classes about dog behavior, and it just sort of snowballed. I also, at the time, I had two very reactive dogs. So like a lot of other trainers, I learned the hard way, because I had dogs of my own, that taught me a lot. None of the trainers that I found knew how to help me with reactivity. They knew how to teach me to teach my dog to sit, but not how to change their behavior as far as reactivity and barking and lunging at strange people and strange dogs. So I had to learn how to help my dogs through a lot of other avenues. And ultimately, I did find a dog training apprenticeship that was the beginning of my career. I worked in a shelter, and simultaneously in a dog daycare, started to learn how to become a trainer through that. So I was really, at that time, mid 20s, absolutely immersed in dogs everywhere. Eat, sleep and drink with dogs.
Chrissy 9:29
Talk to us like just your path from the Caribbean. How did you get to the Humane Society? And then how long were you there? And then you when did you start training wheels?
Jamie 9:39
I was immersed in both the shelter environment and the dog daycare and doing my apprenticeship. And when I completed all of that, I had been working as a professional trainer for very, a very short time. Then I learned about some of the shelter programs in Colorado, especially at HSB, and I. Reached out and asked about doing an internship there to learn more about shelter behavior modification. The rest is sort of history, as far as me being in Colorado, because once I was here, it was just a different world. As far as being in the shelter and the people that I worked with and everybody having similar worldview, as far as helping dogs and being nice to each other, because where I had been wasn't that way. I worked really, really hard to become part of the behavior program at Boulder humane, which at the time, was one of the best in the country. So it wasn't easy to get my foot in the door there, I did manage it, and I worked really hard, and I learned a ton. I tried very hard for a long time to avoid having to teach people. I helped convince my supervisors to actually create a new position for myself that was bridging the gap between the shelter side and the training department, thinking that that would be a way for me to not have to deal with teaching people, because I was afraid, I was terrified of teaching people. What wound up happening is that I started to be the one that was always having volunteers and out of state visitors from other shelters shadow me. So I wound up instructing, instructing people on how to train dogs that way, and I did get a lot more comfortable with it, and eventually decided that teaching people was something that I did enjoy, and it was a new area that I was still challenged by, because at that point in my career, the dogs were easy. I can read black body language, and I can teach dogs how to feel safer and make good choices, but I don't necessarily know how to coach the people to do that with their own dogs. So it became a challenge for me, and you mentioned earlier that I enjoy challenges, so what I set for myself was the challenge to work with people more and teach them to teach their dogs after a little while, if anyone listening has worked in a shelter environment, you will be able to identify that after eight years working in shelters. It does become a little bit much, especially for someone that wants to make a decent living while I don't want to be rich, I did have to make a decision as far as, do I work for minimum wage, doing something that I am excellent at, or do I start my own business and have people pay me a little bit more of what I'm worth, and the benefit of that, that I didn't realize at the time was that people really do value what you're giving them a lot more when they're paying a little more for it. When I was working at the shelter, we gave a lot of things away. We had the luxury of having donations and donors, and I was paid an hourly wage regardless of what I was doing. So it didn't really matter if I was giving that appointment away for free or not, but people did not listen to me the same way that they do now when I'm when I am charging more for my services for financial reasons, primarily, I did shift away from the shelter environment and start to do more appointments with people that had already adopted those dogs or or raising their own dogs. Training wheels specializes in fear and reactivity. We work what not exclusively with dogs that have behavioral sensitivities, but primarily so most of the dogs that I work with are worried about new people or other dogs or all the things, and I think that because of that niche, my business has been pretty successful.
Chrissy 13:50
And how long have you had training wheels? About eight years. And let's bring this up real quick, because there's always this discussion about labels. So I don't like using the word aggression, but most people can easily understand what that looks like. But what words do you like to describe the dog? I mean, you already kind of did. But how do you like to describe the dogs you work with?
Jamie 14:14
I generally use the terms fearful and reactive because it's a little less harsh than Abreu, and people usually know what I'm talking about when I say that sensitive is generally a word that I prefer being really sensitive is what I call all the dogs that training mouse when it comes to aggression, I think that people use that term all too often as if It's a personality trait rather than a list of behaviors that the dog is actually performing. So I do tend to steer away from it. And if I have a client that I'm working with that is asking me point blank, is, is my dog Abreu? Then I usually do explain my definition of aggression is this. It's not a. A thing that your dog is or is not. It's something that they are doing. They're using those behaviors. They're using that aggression to protect themselves or change the situation or try to communicate that they need space.
Chrissy 15:12
Yeah. So I think when you just said, aggression is this and this and this, I think people will be like, what is it? Jamie, what is it? Tell me. So what is the list that you have? Just like a general list of
Jamie 15:25
well, most of the time when a dog is labeled by other people as aggressive, it is reacting defensively because it's worried, and that usually looks like barking, growling, lunging, snapping, the dog is trying to, we call them distance increasing behaviors. They're trying to increase the distance between themselves and the perceived threat.
Chrissy 15:49
Yes, they are, and people are learning how to listen a little bit better with you in the world, I really am
Jamie 15:59
helping people understand what makes their dogs tick, why the dog is doing what they're doing, and that the dog isn't misbehaving necessarily. They're not being bad, they're uncomfortable, and they're trying to handle the situation. The best way that they know how,
Chrissy 16:16
that's one of my most favorite things to do, too, is just help people to understand why? Because it just creates such a change in the relationship between the human and the dog. It's and that's what my one of my focuses is changing the relationships so and so you work with many dogs that have bite histories, correct? I do, yes, me too. That is like a fun challenge for you too well. I think that while it
Jamie 16:44
is a good measuring stick as far as green trainers being able to take on certain cases if you if you're brand new at training people to train their dogs, steering clear of bite cases is a good idea, but dogs have big teeth and dogs bite, while it's not a desirable behavior, it is a very normal, common behavior. So I don't necessarily think that if a dog has a bite history, it is any you know, is significantly dangerous. The severity of those bites and how many they've have, have had, and the circumstances around those bites tells me a lot of information. So just the fact that a dog has bitten someone or another dog all by itself, just given that statement, this dog has a bite history, that really doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Yeah,
Chrissy 17:38
exactly. Why did you decide to focus on aggressive behaviors and sensitive dogs in the specialized boarding? Why did you decide to do that?
Jamie 17:48
Oh, that's a really good question too. Mostly because I was able to provide that service that no one else is offering. For good reason, right? Dog, your average chain dog daycare should probably not be catering to dogs with significant behavioral sensitivities, because they don't have the staff that are trained to do that, and they are housing really large numbers of dogs that need to be comfortable being around each other. So it's not a service that is easy to find, and the rest of it happened out of necessity, because I have these dogs that I'm working with that the clients don't have someone else that they trust to take care of the dog. The dog doesn't trust anyone else, and the clients don't necessarily trust their 22 year old daughter to take care of this dog that really needs a lot of extra management and hand holding while they are out of the country. So if the dog trusts me and someone asks me, my father passed away, and I have to go to Wisconsin next week, can you please take care of Bowie? I'm gonna do it because there's nowhere else for that dog to go. I love the dog. I have a relationship with the dog, and out of necessity, I was the one that wound up taking care of some of these dogs early on, though it was in my home, which presents a whole nother level of issues and problems and extra layers of management and keeping my own dog safe and all of those things. So eventually we outgrew that setup, little two bedroom house with a moderately sized yard and neighbors close by, and we're needing to find another space where I could comfortably house, you know, 20 plus dogs at a time without them all being on top of each other. So that is how we moved to the space that we're in now, yeah,
Chrissy 19:51
that's awesome. And I know quite a few of my clients they board at your place, because on my part, like just have. Seeing someone who knows how to handle and work with my clients, dogs, you know, who are very sensitive I just makes me feel so much better, knowing that I can be like, Okay, go talk to Jamie, you know, board there. Just know anything, knowing everybody and everything and all the dogs will be safe. So I really appreciate you know what you do in regard to all that?
Jamie 20:23
Well, I love doing it, and I love that we are able to offer that since it is really hard to find. And I appreciate all of your referrals
Chrissy 20:32
now there are a lot of boarding facilities that use punitive type measures. So a lot of people think, you know, my dog is reactive or aggressive or whatever they need a heavy hand. There's no way that you know positive reinforcement or force free is going to work for my dog. And so what's your approach, and has it evolved over time? Obviously,
Jamie 20:52
I am a positive reinforcement trainer. Otherwise I would not be talking to you. But that label gets misused a lot too. So I think it's important to clarify that I do not use any kind of force or pressure or intimidation tactics. Everything that we are doing is preventing the dogs from being in over their heads and making mistakes so that we don't need to interrupt them, and we are working to really address the underlying emotions that are causing their behavior. So we're helping them understand that the world is safe and they can relax around all of these big, scary things, as well as teaching them very clearly what we want them to do. That doesn't mean that we're practicing in the dog park around other dogs. We are installing some very important skills in the abs of those exciting or scary things, and helping the dog really understand how to do what we want them to do, whether that's respond to their name, check in, automatically, walk away, take a break, lie down, calm down. We're practicing all of those things in a really easy, low distraction scenario, and then gradually increasing the difficulty. I think that my training over time, what has changed, what has evolved, is not the underlying philosophy, but how I implement it, and how much things have been pared down over time. I think that there are a lot of gimmicky games and tricks that people utilize, especially with dogs that have big feelings, while I don't think that any of those games, you know, fun games are never going to be bad. As far as being efficient in training, paring things down and just doing a few very important things is how my training has changed over time. So there are games that I eight years ago would have played, or if I heard about them today, I would glom on to and be like, Oh yeah, that's cool. Let's do that, because I understand the rationale behind the game, but I have since abandoned or used once in a great while for this particular dog, because they really love playing tug or something like that. But in general, my training has gotten much more simplified for both the clients and the dogs. I want to keep things as simple and straightforward and easy to implement as possible, so that the dog can learn easily, the client can catch on and get good at practicing, and that they don't feel like they have 20 different things that they're supposed to be practicing. Just do these three things and we'll build on that next week. Yes,
Chrissy 23:38
I remember starting out, you just want to show them and tell them everything. Yeah, you just want to, you just want to vomit all over them, because you really want to help them. But the easier and more simple it is, the better it is for everyone. So it's super important,
Jamie 23:55
and that's really hard to do, especially when you're, you're brand new and you're you've just learned all these things, and you want to share it with the world. That is a big thing that everyone, including myself, has has worked through as far as coaching other people. The other thing that I think I really strive for with my training is to give both the people and the dogs tools that they can use without me. Part of the reason that my business is called training wheels is that I I'm helping you to get going with the goal that you'll be able to do this on your own, and that the dog will be able to make some of these choices on their own. I don't want to have you relying for the rest of the dog's life on your treat pouch and not done using leash corrections, but leash corrections to be able to get the dog to do what they need them to do. I want you and the dog to be able to transition away from these crutches and be able to handle these things and make good choices and have the environment cue the dog. So that's the other thing that I really try to do, is I'm I'm really trying to help the clients learn how to do some of these strategies without me, and I'm definitely teaching the dogs to function without needing to be micromanaged by their handlers. Yeah,
Chrissy 25:15
and that reminds me of two things. One, if someone's going into dog training because they don't like working with people. That's not what dog training is. You are mostly working with a human to help their dog. And then second, let's talk about motivators. What motivators do you find helpful to use, and how is that better than using corrections or shot collars or prong collars?
Jamie 25:38
It's gonna vary a little bit depending on the dogs. Generally, I'm using treats to install brand new behaviors, and then over time, we're practicing those skills with other rewards that the dog is interested in. Food is really useful, because the dogs have to eat, and I can get a lot of repetitions in very quickly. It helps us do really clean, tidy training. I have a lot of people that will come to me and say, My dog is not food motivated. They're wrong. I guarantee your dog is food motivated. They have to eat to stay alive, so they're either not using good enough treats, or they've put the dog in a situation that is too hard for them. But usually I've got some pretty delicious treats on me, so the dog is eating the treats that I have, and I guess he has food motivated. After all,
Chrissy 26:28
amazing how that happened.
Jamie 26:31
When we're talking about motivators, I'm using things that the dog is interested in most of the time. That's food to start off with, but anything a dog is excited about or wants to check out, I can use as a reinforcer for a choice that the dog is making. So sometimes that's access to go say hi to a friend of ours. Sometimes that's getting to chase a bunny. Anything that my dog wants, I can harness and utilize to reward behaviors that I want to see more of. The nice thing about using things that are yummy and fun, games and treats and play and access to chase things is that we have warm, fuzzy associations built into everything that we're doing. If my dog is having a good time when they are training, they're learning that the game is fun. I'm fun, the place that we're in is fun. And if I were to use reprimands or threats in order to get my dog to comply, I would have the exact opposite. I would be teaching that the teaching the dog that they need to behave the way I want them to or else, and that's not going to be warm and fuzzy and fun. So yes, we can get a dog to listen to us in that case, but there's a huge risk that our dogs will get stressed about the training situation in me and the environment that we're in, and anything else that's around while we're doing that, and since I'm specializing in working with sensitive dogs, I want them to think that all of those things are okay and even safe and wonderful. So that is why I choose not to use any kind of harsh methods in order to get my dogs to listen to me. I want them to feel happy and safe, and I want them to be motivated because it's fun, not because they're worried about repercussions
Chrissy 28:26
and they trust you. It comes back around to that relationship. Yeah, yeah. And so just talk real quick about the fallout of using those kind of aversive, you know, methods, the reprimand and the fear based type stuff like, what Fallout Have you seen?
Jamie 28:43
Let me just give an example. So So most dogs learn how to sit before they learn many other things. It's a behavior that we historically have taught our dogs to do, and I actually have a hypothesis when it comes to that, which is that when you learn about dog behavior, you learn that sitting is a cutoff signal. It's a way for the dog to try to end an interaction, especially between dogs. If my dog is sniffing invasively the butt of that other dog, that other dog might sit down to cut off access and communicate that they do not like that interaction. So sitting is a cutoff signal. My hypothesis is that when we're putting pressure on the dogs, you know, physical pressure, and stepping into their space and trying to intimidate them into doing something, they will often sit as a way to diffuse that interaction. And so I think that by default, we taught the dogs to sit more frequently because we're putting pressure on them. They sit down to avoid the pressure, and then we release the pressure. So that's my weird little hypothesis as to why we use sits for everything. But back to my example, a lot of dogs are taught to sit with pressure, and thankfully, it's not as common anymore. Most. People when they've got a puppy, they're using food to get the dog to sit but it still happens. I still regularly meet with clients who have worked with trainers who use leash corrections and pulling up on the leash to make the dog put their butt down, or even teaching the dog that if they stand up, they get a shock, so the dogs learn that they have to keep their butt on the ground or they're going to be in trouble. And when they learn sit that way, everything else that is happening while we're teaching the dog to sit in that fashion gets associated with stress. So I'm worried about what my person is doing, so I don't trust them, and I understand that when they say, sit, I better put my butt on the ground, or something bad is going to happen. So the cue itself becomes bad news. So when we are using corrections or pressure, anything that the dog finds unpleasant doesn't have to be painful, but if the dog finds it unpleasant, then we are going to have unpleasant associations built into our training and the behaviors and the cues and us too, when we talk about fallout of punishing training techniques, that's generally what we're meaning. Is that rather than having warm, fuzzy, positive associations built into everything we can run the risk of teaching the dog that the world is not safe, right? And
Chrissy 31:27
another thing that I makes me really sad to see is a fallout. Is just a dog being shut down. They just stop trying to show any behavior, yeah. And so it looks like the dog is behaving perfectly well, but if you really understand dog body language and really know what your dog is communicating with their body, you actually come to see that your dog is just like, kind of given up and their personality is not shining through. So that's a huge common mistake that I see where people's like, oh, but they're behaving perfectly well, and it happens so fast, and it's like, no, not really. They're actually just shut down, and they're actually scared of trying to do anything. And so to me, that's one of the, one of the more sad things that I see with the fallout of aversive type training.
Jamie 32:13
Yeah, that's a really good point. I do see that a lot, too. Yeah.
Chrissy 32:17
I'm sure you see it, yeah, with all the clients that you work with,
Jamie 32:22
yeah and again, because I'm trying to help with reactivity. A lot of those clients that have tried those techniques, the the goal is to get the dog not to react, to stop, yeah, to stop reacting and not reacting is definitely manifests as shut down very
Chrissy 32:40
frequently. So I told one of my clients that I was going to interview you, and I just said, if she had a question for you, what would she ask? And she said, Do you see any consistent patterns across all of the sensitive dogs that you work with? So for example, do you see like underlying medical issues, do you see human misunderstanding or certain needs not being met? Is there a certain pattern that you see when you are working with a sensitive puppies?
Jamie 33:10
I would say, to some extent, all of those things are true, but the biggest trend that I see is genetic predisposition. We probably shouldn't get into the nature versus nurture discussion. But what I will say is it's not just how you raise your dog. You you have a dog that sometimes has been selectively bred very, very carefully over hundreds of years to do a very specific job, and some of the time that job that was really advantageous 100 years ago so that we could get the dog to work with us. Now that we're asking the same kind of dog to live in a very, very busy apartment complex, it's not advantageous. So I do have a lot of dogs that are hurting breeds or hurting mixes, and I think that that is because originally, these breeds were selectively bred. They're hardwired to be hyper vigilant. It was really beneficial for us to have dogs that were aware of everything all day and all night, so that they could pay attention when a sheep was wandering away, or when an intruder or a predator was coming toward the livestock, and the dogs are that are descendants of those dogs are still hardwired to do that, so it's not fun for us to listen to them alert barking when the wind blows, or when everybody's walking back by on our Greenway right behind our house, but the dogs are supposed to do that, so I would say that is the biggest trend, and it's it is misunderstood. The behaviors that the dogs are doing today are misunderstood because people don't really think or know to expect that those dogs are still going to need to function that way. In this environment that they're not designed for, speaking
Chrissy 35:03
to that the genetic predisposition means not being met with those kind of breeds that, you know, you work with a lot, they need that outlet. You know, that's a need that's not being met. So giving them an outlet, but then also the environment too, like the managing the environment so they're not being triggered all the time.
Jamie 35:23
Absolutely, and I think that we're doing a disservice by continuing to breed some of these dogs, or cross breed them as designer dogs. People are surprised when they have a sheep, a doodle puppy, so a sheep dog, poodle, cross that is wary of strangers coming into their house. And it shouldn't be a surprise that a sheepdog cross is worried about new things. Yeah, it's my two cents on the Trinity.
Chrissy 35:53
I know there's so many doodles out there, so you do work a lot with veterinary behaviorist. How is that relationship helpful for you with the dogs that you work with
Jamie 36:04
very I really wish that there were more board certified veterinary behaviorists in the state, because they have a skill set that no one else has, and I do collaborate with their offices very frequently. I have a lot of clients that we share, because a lot of the dogs that come to training wheels not just because of because of genetic predisposition, it could be underlying medical issues or anxiety due to under socialization. There's a combination of things, but a lot of the dogs that I work with really benefit from pharmaceutical assistance. And that is not the only thing that be the veterinary behaviorists do, but they do that better than anybody else. They can help clients find the right medication to help balance their dog's brain chemistry and bring down the stress levels so that everything is easier their quality of life and their generalized stress and their ability to cope with things as they come, I would not be able to be as successful in many of the cases that I work with if I did not have veterinarians to collaborate with.
Chrissy 37:15
Yeah, and just to be clear, there is a difference between a veterinarian and a veterinary behaviorist. Veterinary behaviors. Behaviorists have more education and schooling in the behavior aspect of working with dogs, but we're going to be having interviews with both of them, so we'll get more clear on that. But yeah, what would you say is the hardest part about working with sensitive dogs,
Jamie 37:38
having patience? I have learned over the years to be very, very patient with the dogs, especially, but also with the people. But teaching, or I should say, convincing people to be patient in this process, is hard, so I don't struggle with being patient, watching the dogs go through their training, but helping my clients be patient and get getting buy in from them and not having them expect an overnight change when we're working on reprogramming habits that the dog has had for years, or a severe phobia, or really being incredibly sensitized to A certain trigger, recognizing that it takes time to change those underlying emotions and rebuild habits. I think that's the most challenging thing, is really helping people understand that behavior modification is not a magic wand.
Chrissy 38:34
Yep, that's huge. Um, because when we are addressing emotions and working with fear that takes time, and it's definitely not a quick fix. That's one huge thing is it's just going to take time, you know, we can't say how long, because that's up to the dog and the human and how they are working together and how the dog responds, yeah, that's a huge piece. Is patience and just knowing that it's going to take time, and it's not a quick fix,
Jamie 39:04
it works, and, yeah, it does, takes a little time, definitely.
Chrissy 39:08
So can you tell us about a complicated case that ended up with amazing results, or something that you I don't know, that you think people might really enjoy hearing about. Most of
Jamie 39:20
the dogs that I work with are pretty complicated, so picking out one that people thought were too far gone or that this is the their last chance. I work with a lot of last ditch dogs, and I'm proud to say that most of the time, we do make significant progress very quickly, even though we just talked about how slow it is, because when they're when they're making the right choices and helping the dog in the right ways, we can see some pretty, uh, dramatic change very quickly. So unfortunately, the ones that stand out to me are the ones you know, the handful of dogs that. I was not successful with one of those dogs was my own dog, so I don't know want me to share that a little bit. Yeah,
Chrissy 40:07
yeah. I think, I think that's important to share, because we are human too, yeah, yeah. Share if you're comfortable sharing the handful
Jamie 40:14
of dogs that I have not been successful with, I consider them unsuccessful, not because we didn't make progress, but we did, and that's part of why it's hard to accept the few that I'm thinking of are dogs that we did make progress with, and I helped the clients understand why their dogs were doing these things, but for a variety of reasons, sometimes medical that we couldn't control the dogs were still dangerous, even after all of this. Sometimes behavioral euthanasia is the responsible choice and not something that everyone agrees with, but I do. One of my own dogs was a bernese mountain dog named riot. Again, the fight thing, and I wound up with Riot because his guardians surrendered him, and for a little while, the rescue that they surrendered him to did not have a foster home that they could place him in. So he stayed with us at training wheels. So he boarded for a short time. I got to know him. I did some training with him, and the rescue was asking me to do adoption meets, and they were what they were trying to do was foster to adopt. So they had an interested party that thought they wanted to adopt this dog, and they would have the dog go live with them in a foster type situation, and if it worked out, they would adopt. But in each of these situations, the potential adopters, they were looking for a happy go lucky Bernie's mountain dog. Bernie's mountain dogs, like golden retrievers, they have a pretty good reputation of being happy, friendly, goofy guys I meet a lot that are not that way. They're very anxious and overwhelmed easily. But again, I have a skewed population. So Riot did have a really significant bite history, in part, it was exacerbated by a punishment history in his first home, it did not understand what was happening, and they were like scruffing him, and at one point they put a shock collar on him, and I don't blame them for that. They were doing the best that they knew how to at the time. So I made a lot of assumptions that this dog's behavior was all happening because of how he was treated. And unfortunately, that was not the case there. There were some things that were hardwired, or, I should say, misfiring, in this dog's brain, even with me doing everything right, I promise you that I kept this dog in the least stressful situation that was possible. I don't have neighbors, I didn't have people visiting. I kept him away from my other dogs unless it was a very specific situation. I never asked him to do anything that was uncomfortable for him. And despite all of that, even though we would have very long periods where he was okay, occasionally things would happen and he, for no apparent reason, would go from relaxed and happy to Cujo, I'm I'm going to eat you. And he went after two of my dogs on different occasions, and me on several occasions. It was very emotional for all of us, especially because my team at training wheels had also spent a ton of time with this guy, and they only ever saw him when he was happy and relaxed. But at some point, I had to make a decision, because even if I wanted to keep him with me, it wasn't possible for me to keep everyone else around me safe. My own dogs were stressed and at risk. I was at risk, but also early on, I had him playing out in the play yards and interacting with other dog client, dogs and other staff and and it was great. Everybody loved it, but the risk involved meant that I could no longer allow him to do those things either. I really, really thought that, like, 99.9% of the behavior cases that I have worked with that this dog was trigger stacked. His people weren't recognizing the warning signs, and, you know, he was having seizures, and that was triggering things. And we examined all of those, and I believe that there was something that was misfiring in his brain that was causing this, but we were not able to diagnose it and therefore treat it. So I did ultimately decide to do a behavioral euthanasia, and I don't regret the decision. I miss him terribly. Me I loved I never thought I wanted a Bernese Mountain Dog, opposite of dachshunds, but, but I loved him. He was just a big teddy bear, and I really I miss him very much. The silliest things make me think about him like I have a cardboard box that I need to break down in the recycle and I don't have him to tear it up. So it makes me sad. Those are the cases that stick with me, the ones that we do everything right. We do make progress, but for one reason or another, this dog is still dangerous, and it is not responsible to keep him in the situation that he is in, nor is it responsible to pass that risk of death.
Chrissy 45:40
Yeah, yeah. Those are, I mean, those are the ones that stick with you, you know, I see it quite often, like 99.9% of the time, the dog is great. And then there's that, you know, 1% where they turn in, you know, that Jekyll and hide,
Jamie 45:54
yeah? And usually it is because of trigger stacking. Most of the time when people tell me that their dog is unpredictable. It's because the dog is can cope with that thing once every day, and it happens four times today, and that was just too much, yeah? But sometimes that's not the case, right?
Chrissy 46:15
Yeah? Those are hard. Would you say like 95% of the time you have amazing success, and then there's just that, like, 5% where those are hard ones, yeah, and
Jamie 46:26
sometimes that's because of the severity of the dog's behavior, like when they react, they are actually injuring someone. Often it's because not all the instructions get followed, which I don't expect. It's real life. I don't always do my homework when I take a class, so I get it right. But when we when we're doing things right, and when people are preventing the dogs from being in over their heads, really addressing those underlying emotions and teaching them how to do substitute behaviors, we can almost always make progress.
Chrissy 47:03
Yep, Yep, definitely. So how do you keep yourself sane, personally and professionally? Because I know you know working with reactivity and sensitive dogs can be emotionally draining, and there's a lot of burnout in dog trainers from this so how do you keep yourself mentally healthy?
Jamie 47:23
I'm a work in progress, but not because of the emotions involved in training the dogs. Even though I've worked with some very intense cases where the clients and or the dogs, emotions are running high, that isn't hard for me to cope with. I don't get burnt out with that. What is really draining, what is a strain on me is running my own business, and I think that that's another big thing that people need to consider when they are looking at dog training as a career. Even if you're a one man band, there are so many things that you have to learn how to do and keep an eye on running a business where you're we're open every day of the year, and we've got really high staff turnover, and it's so important that the staff that we do have really gets trained carefully, and the People that I have are also introverted dog lovers, people, people, you know, there's so many layers, as far as managing staff and running the business and learning how to do all the things that I never knew that I needed know, fixing things and finding people to Help me do my taxes, and still I don't want to do it. Running my business is really what is the the draining aspect of my job. I have little things that I really like to do, and I am very lucky that I live in a very quiet space. So when I finish my day, I really do get to hide out. I don't have to listen to neighbors playing music or anything like that. I like to knit. I'm a little old lady, so I really, yeah, I keep I keep busy. I'm a very I have a hard time not doing something. So knitting is a soothing thing that I can do. I will also say that I feel very strongly that everyone should have a mental health professional that they feel comfortable talking to, even if you don't think that you're a crazy person. It's very good and healthy to have a therapist that you feel comfortable talking to and bouncing ideas off of and just talking out loud the things that are bothering you and are on your mind, because I'm very talented at stifling all of that. If something is bothering me, I stay busy, I work harder, and I don't deal and so I'm getting better at that. That's another thing that I'm working on. But as far as running my own business, the one other thing that I wanted to say is it has been a huge. Huge shift in my work life balance, since I have felt more comfortable trusting other people with my business, I have a boarding coordinator, I have a business operations director, and I have other training consultants that I feel comfortable having take on some of the more complicated cases. That means that I don't have to do everything. I still feel like I have my fingers and everything, and I am trying to work on extracting myself more. Hiring people to do some of the things and wear some of these hats has made all the difference. So
Chrissy 50:35
delegating responsibility, yes, takes a lot off your shoulders, especially, you know, if you have people that you can trust, that's super helpful. Okay, let's talk about your little dachshund obsession with fetish. Yeah, tell us about your pups and what they've taught you, ruffian and rival. Tell us why dachshunds.
Jamie 50:56
Dachshunds are very popular for a lot of reasons. They have a lot of personality, and they're adorable. I really gravitate toward dachshunds because they are spicy. The dachshunds that I have had, which admittedly, I seek out, the spicier dachshunds, the dachshunds that I have had, definitely require a little more respect. They demand respect. Dachshunds were bred to hunt badgers that are scary and much larger than they are, and they're very much like terriers in their personalities. They're they can be very intense. They don't always have a lot of tolerance for mishandling. They do sometimes tend to resource guard, and so you have to pay a little more attention, because if a dachshund snaps at you, they might actually put holes in you, whereas Australian Shepherd might have a little bit more of a gentle warning. So I just, I don't respect that they they bite people more often I do. I enjoy the fact that a lot of dachshunds, not all dachshunds, a lot of dachshunds draw very clear boundaries that you've not allowed to cross. They love their people. Once they trust you, they can be the sweetest, most, cuddliest dogs ever. I really enjoy that they will curl up under the blanket with me. I like that. They are sassy. They stand up for themselves.
Chrissy 52:29
Yeah, I love that. I love it so much. So. Jamie, what are the challenges in the dog training world and how has this affected you, personally and professionally? The
Jamie 52:41
fact that dog training is not a regulated industry is something that I think has been a big challenge, and there's a couple different reasons for that, but the biggest one is that anybody can call themselves a dog trainer, it's hard for people that are shopping for these services to lead through who is knowledgeable and skilled and who isn't. So I think that in some ways, it's just harder to find the right trainer that is going to give you what you need. But the other reason that I think it's a really big problem is that when anyone can call themselves a trainer, that means that there are going to be people that aren't very good at what they do, so even if they're using very gentle, warm, fuzzy techniques, if they're not effective in changing a dog's behavior, or they have no ability to coach a person on how to train with their dog, or, even worse, they're nice to The dog, but mean to the client who is actually paying your bill. Then that person is going to come away from that experience saying, I tried positive reinforcement, and it didn't work. And then they're going to next time around, whether it's later with that dog or with the next dog, they're they are going to go to a trainer that uses more heavy handed techniques, I think that that's something in the dog training world that has made a big impact on me and my business, having a lot of trainers out there, and having it hard for people to know who to trust, and working with Positive reinforcement trainers with excellent intentions, but that are not effective, and therefore those clients wind up going elsewhere. Yes, I
Chrissy 54:27
definitely agree with both of those. Because, yeah, you can have trainers out there that are, you know, that try to use the positive reinforcement. You know, if they're not doing it correctly, it's, it's not effective. So, yeah, good intentions, but the effectiveness isn't there, right? What negative wisdom or just any important information that you want to share with our audience?
Jamie 54:49
There's two things that I want to mention. One is kind of on the heels of what we were just talking about, that it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to say, I don't know. The answer to that, but I'm gonna go find out for you, even referring your dog training clients to someone who is more equipped to help them. One of the things that I've learned as I've gotten older and wiser is that it's okay to not know everything. When I was younger, I thought I knew everything, and I would be upset if I didn't, and I would pretend that I did. And now I've been around the block a little bit, I am much more comfortable saying, you know, I don't actually know the answer to that. I'll go do some research and I'll get back to you or that's not my area of expertise. Let me find someone that I can send you to. So it's okay to say I don't know, is my advice. And then the other thing that I wanted to talk about is that it's okay to comfort your fearful dog. So this is a big myth that I hear a lot, and almost every time I meet with a new client who has a dog that is worried they're afraid, to give the dog attention when the dog is scared, or they're afraid to feed the dog until it's been quiet, if it's barking because the the dog is worried, because the clients are really worried that they are going to reward the spooky barking. And I'm here to tell you that you cannot make your dog more scared by comforting them. If you tell your dog that it's okay, don't worry about it, and you give them some delicious treats, or you play their favorite game to help them feel better about a scary situation, none of those things are going to make them more scared and none of those things are going to make them bark louder and longer. So even though it might feel a little bit weird to give your dog some hot dogs when they're barking at the neighbors, I promise that you're not going to make them bark more. Go ahead and comfort your scared dog.
Chrissy 56:53
Yes, and that, literally, I had this conversation the other day with a client, and they're like, it feels really counterintuitive to give my dog treats when they're, you know, barking about something. And I said, I know it does feel counterintuitive, but we're working on changing the underlying emotion. You know, we're not reinforcing a behavior. So it's something that you have to hear and understand a few times before it really clicks. And just to be clear, when you're talking about the first part of this answer that you gave. You're talking about other trainers that it's okay to refer if you don't know something, you're you're talking to trainers Correct. Yeah. And so, yeah. So I just wanted to clarify that, you know, with like, trainers that are starting out, you know, if you don't know something, or if it's if you're not comfortable with it, it's okay to refer out. And then, you know, talking to me, talking to clients and human, you know, humans with the dogs, it's okay to comfort you're not reinforcing a behavior. You're just changing that underlying emotion. So those are two very important things to talk about. I know so many people are going to want to be like, how do I get in touch with Jamie? What's the best way for people to get in contact with you?
Jamie 58:09
You can go to our website, www, dot trainingwheels, dot dog. Dog not.com trainingwheels dot dog and all of our contact information is there. You can email us through the website or give us a call at the phone number that's listed.
Chrissy 58:28
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk with us, and I know a lot of people will benefit from hearing this information.
Jamie 58:35
I really enjoyed being here today. Thanks. Chrissy, awesome.
Chrissy 58:39
Well, there you go. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you got some insights that you can put into action today. If you want to get in touch with Jamie, please go ahead and do that. I know she would be happy to talk with you. Dogs truly are special beings and can change lives if we're open to what they have to teach us, this not only impacts you and your dog, but can also make a positive impact on the world. If you're finding value in this podcast, the best way to support us is by leaving a review up to five stars and sharing it with your family, friends and fellow dog lovers around the world. Lastly, I'd love to connect with you. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook at the nature of animals, and visit my [email protected] Until next time, be curious. Show compassion and have courage. You.
