Chrissy 0:00
Chris, welcome to The Dogs of our lives Podcast. I'm Chrissy Messick, your host and owner of the nature of animals. My dog training and behavior consulting business, get ready to hear journeys from challenging behaviors to heartwarming successes and everything in between. Our episodes will feature personal stories from clients, colleagues and professionals, all centered around our favorite animal companion, friends. Each episode, you'll gain insights and valuable tools from those that have walked the path that you are on with your dog. We'll discuss mindset shifts, growth, training, tips, lessons, learned and so much more. By the end of each episode, you'll feel inspired have a deeper understanding of your dog and walk away with actionable steps to improve both of your lives.
Chrissy 0:48
Welcome, welcome, and today, I talk with Dr Mark beckoff, who is a professor emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado in Boulder. Mark's published about 31 books or more, and he has won many awards for his research on animal behavior, animal emotions, cognitive, ethology, compassionate, conservation, animal protection, and he's worked closely with Jane Goodall as co chair of the ethics committee of the Jane Goodall Institute. He's also a former Guggenheim Fellow, and he works closely with inmates at the Boulder County Jail. So Mark's recent books have included dogs demystified, an A to Z guide to all things canine, and the second edition of the emotional lives of animals. He also publishes regularly for Psychology Today, and on a fun side note, in 1986 Mark won the Masters Tour de Haute, aka the age graded Tour de France. So I hope you enjoy our conversation and learn some incredible things. Hello, Mark,
Marc 1:54
Hello, good to see you. Chrissy, yeah, thanks for being here. I'm so excited to talk with you.
Chrissy 1:59
We were just talking. We had met and had coffee about six years ago, and that's when I was just kind of starting my dog training business. And so we just met and talked and chatted about a lot of things, and my husband also fit you for a knee brace as well. So it's kind of, it's kind of funny how we kind of came together.
Marc 2:21
Yeah, he gifted me one, which was nice, because they're not cheap.
Chrissy 2:26
No, definitely not. I know he's like, do you know this mark beckoff guy?
Chrissy 2:32
We kind of went on our paths and we reconnected. And so this is so thank you for being here and sharing all of your wisdom and experience my pleasure. Anything about dogs, I'm pretty much willing to talk about Awesome. Okay, so we'll just start off. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you live, what you're doing now, and the current dogs and your family?
Marc 2:53
Yeah, I live in Boulder. I moved down to Boulder from up in the mountains after the flood. My house was okay, but Boulder Canyon didn't exist anymore, so it was hard to get home. Yeah, I haven't lived with a dog in quite a while, mainly because after Jethro, my last dog passed away. Some years ago, my friends would always bring their dogs to my house. I had a beautiful outdoor run in the mountains, and so they could be outside all day.
Marc 3:22
You know, I was spoiled because they rarely were on a leash and often without collars. They weren't a lot of cars, and we had bears and cougars and foxes and some coyotes early on at my house, never had an incident, so they had a good life up there, and I just didn't want to have a dog who I had to walk every morning and right? I just was not used to that, you know, and I could pretty much come and go. I was teaching at university for years and go off on long bike rides or travel. So I actually had a really good setup in terms of I was able to care for my friends dogs when they left, because they really liked being at my house and having a big outdoor run and all their canine friends. When I came down here after a couple of years, I didn't have many dogs came to stay at my house, but I always had dogs, you know, who would hang out. I just decided that I have a lot of dogs in my life. And like I said, I just because I knew myself well enough I was traveling a lot, and I just knew myself well enough that I couldn't give a dog the quality life that I would like to give them, which, in all honesty, was pretty good life, right? Yeah.
Chrissy 4:30
I mean, that's huge awareness just knowing your lifestyle and having a dog, you know, be part of that lifestyle, or knowing that they wouldn't be a good part of that lifestyle, and I think that's a huge part of just when you're, you know, bringing a dog into your life, that's really important to understand that and know
Marc 4:48
that, yeah, I mean, it's something I always stress. So I wrote a book that came out last year called dogs demystified. And among the reasons I wrote that book was to drive home on. The one hand that taking your dog into your home and your heart is a huge it's a huge decision. It's like having a kid. It's a huge decision, and it's okay not to do it if you don't think you could give that dog a quality life, especially for first time dog people, a lot of them underestimate, I don't mean that in a negative way. They just haven't done it right. You know they've got a thinking feeling being now who has demands on you. So it's fair to tell them to think about the financial commitment, the time commitment, the lack of maybe your daily rituals or routines will become much less flexible as they should, and just just the pure energy of it, you know, because you You're their lifeline. And for people who have had dogs, it's a little easier. But then again, you know, always asking them, you know, Were there times when you wish you didn't have a dog? There's nothing wrong with that. Like me, you know, I think they just decided at some point that a change in life, or whatever, whatever it is, that it wasn't a good time to bring another dog in to your home, couldn't do what needed to be done.
Chrissy 6:11
Yeah, and it's interesting, because I have quite a few clients, and have had quite a few clients who you know in your like, 20s and 30s and 40s, you're you have working dogs, and you have that energy to have them, you know, work with them, that kind of stuff. And as you get older, I see clients that are in their 90s that are getting a German Shepherd. So it's okay, well, I can't really change the environment, and this is what your dog needs. And so what are we going to do as you get older? Your energy changes, your abilities change. And so that's important to keep in mind when you're you know, thinking about bringing a dog into your life as well.
Marc 6:55
Yeah, no, absolutely. I know people who have you know lived alone, or they lived in alone and or in places that were not like in town, if you will. They learned really fast that a dog really, when I say became a problem. I don't mean it in a negative way. They realized that it would become a problematic and they decided to get, you don't get a border collie if you live in in town anywhere, as far as I'm concerned, because they go 24/7, but, but I think what you just said about, you know, it's, it's age related, and I think a lot of it is just, well, I've had dogs my whole life. They're wonderful. I don't want one now, and I can still have dog energy, which is what I went people said, did you have withdrawal after living for decades with dogs, said no. I mean, like today I go out, there's a dog who I see almost every morning, you know. And what I like about it too is that I have a very flexible schedule, but it often fills so i It's not built into my day what I have to do and, I mean, have to do to give that dog a quality life, picking the right dog. Smaller dogs are great for older people or people who have limited mobility, and that can happen at any age. Oh, yeah, had friends in their 30s who needed, you know, knee surgeries or surgeries, and for quite a while they were had limited mobility, so it was really easy for them to have a tiny dog who they could carry around, or you wouldn't need to run a country mile every hour on the hour. So responsible guardianship is what I call it, is really a big thing in getting a dog and the other of course, another reason I wrote dogs demystified was simply because I want people to be dog literate or fluent in dog, I want them to have a course in dog. 101, some people resent it, as far as I'm concerned, often for the wrong reason. When they say, Oh, well, I thought it was going to be easier than this, and I go, No, it's not. But the upside of that is, I've had some people say, you know, I don't have the time to study dog, got a job and I've got family or other obligations. So, yeah, it's a commitment and a change in lifestyle, and then learning dog.
Chrissy 9:06
Yep, you are bringing a different species into your home, so it's an obligation to learn about that species. You know, they are not homo sapiens, they're canines, and so it's a different species, and that's one of the most important things they teach, when I start working with people, is this is your dog. You got to understand your dog. And oh, we could just talk about that forever.
Marc 9:30
I think it's really important because, like I said, when I wrote this book, and it was not an easy book to do, but I did it for a number of reasons. I don't mean that I'm a altruist. I learned a lot as I was doing it, looking at the commitment that it entails, learning a new language, that's what it is, and then realizing how important you are in their life, especially for home dogs. Living in a town, I still have major obligations when I lived in the mountains, but when I. Not have was, I didn't have to think during the day, oh, it's time for a walk. They got to go potty or, you know, setting up play dates so you can socialize them go to a dog park. I didn't have to do that. And so it's worth really delving into the nature of the dog human relationship and realizing that it can become difficult at times. You know, like human relationships can be difficult, and have their ups and downs. It's all too easy. And I don't mean it in a negative way, for a human to go, oh, well, yeah, I'm usually home now they need me, but I'm going to go out for dinner, or I'm not going home after work, you know? I mean, I also worked at home a lot, so no, I think it's really worth talking about, because so many dogs are abandoned or surrendered that it's really worth trying to figure out why. And a lot of times it's either cost too much, it's either takes too much time or or they're a pain. And a lot of times when the behavioral problems arise, and I know you would, I'm not a dog trainer, you would know this better than I do. It can take not only a money commitment, but time and energy to have a dog learn or re or de learn something so that they can adapt to your lifestyle, because that's what you're asked. We're asking them to do. Yep, it's,
Chrissy 11:13
you know, it's a big decision. Yeah, huge. Tell us about psychology today. Well,
Marc 11:18
yeah. I mean, it was funny, because I've been doing it for about let me see 15 or 16 years. It all started after I wrote a book called the animal manifesto. But I had also written the emotional lives of animals a few years the first edition, because I just had a new edition come out, and they asked my editor to talk to me about writing. And at first I, I mean, not for any reason other than I was traveling a lot and I was busy. I said no, but it's turned out to be a wonderful experience. My column is called Animal emotions. I can write about a lot of things, because animal emotions has a broad reach, if you will, to other topics. I've written tons of essays for them, and what I love about it is I've made a lot of contacts with people who I never would have had contact with, and vice versa, they've made contact with me. So I really like doing it, and it's been weird. It's been a successful site. It's had more than 10 point 8 million views, yeah, but I love it, you know, I don't mean that in egocentric way. It's just reaching, reaching people who I never would have reached, and then making friends through it too, which I've done. So that's really nice. Yeah,
Chrissy 12:27
it's awesome. Okay, so you've done quite a bit of work in your life, you know, so far with animals and education. Can you tell us a little bit about your professional journey being like a field biologist and ethologist and behavioral ecologist and a writer and and what highlights of the journey along the way that really impacted you? It's
Marc 12:48
a good question. I appreciate it. It all started because I was born in Brooklyn, New York, and concrete sidewalks, and everybody at that time had their requisite goldfish in a tank on their kitchen counter, and my mom had been bitten by a dog when she was young, so she didn't dislike dogs. She was afraid of them. But I used to talk to all the animals in the neighborhood. I would go outside on the sidewalk, and I talked to the dogs and the cats and the ants and the birds and whoever else was around. I used to tell my folks that I could feel their emotions. I could feel what they knew or didn't know if they were stressed, and something was perplexing them. And it actually was during a conversation I had with my folks some years ago. Well, we all came up with the phrase minding animals, and I wrote a book in 2002 called minding animals, that I was minding them in terms of attributing minds to them, that they were smart and emotional, feeling beings and minding them, because I really cared about them. I loved when they were happy, but I could really feel their sadness or their when they were rejected by another dog or cat or some other animal. So that was really what got me going, and it was non linear, because anything that I started doing or learning about in elementary and high school and college, I really loved, but think deep in my genes, and I really mean this, my mom was a very empathic woman. My father was a really positive thinker. And at some point, after trying a number of different things, it just happened that I made contact with a guy named Michael Fox, who, at the time, and still writes about dogs and other Coronavirus, was really one of the leaders, the early pioneers of canine and dog ethology. So I dropped out of a MD PhD program. I really didn't want to do it, and when I learned that he was at Washington University in St Louis, where I had gone as an undergrad, it's just coincidental. So I remember calling Michael and just saying, I'd love to be your student. This is what I'm doing. And Michael had a vet degree and a PhD in psychology, but that was really the beginning and more the funnel. I really wanted to ultimately study, I mean, it just happened to be dogs, but, you know, it could have been other animals. And I also wanted to do field work, so I went and did my dissertation with Michael, and then I got the job at University of Colorado in Boulder. My reason for taking the job here was I wanted to do field work a couple years after, would have been maybe two or three years after I got a grant, and we wound up doing an eight and a half year field study in the Grand Teton National Park around an area called black tail Butte, right near moose Wyoming. A lot of people don't know it's moose, but it's a headquarters for the Grand Teton National Park. It all fell in place once I decided that this is really what I want to do,
Chrissy 15:41
yeah. What does field work entail? Can you give people, like, an example of what you're doing and what you're looking for?
Marc 15:49
Well, it varies. I spent more time than I do now at dog parks around Boulder, but other places, you know, in other countries, like the UK, don't have dog parks, but field work. Could be going to a dog park, you know, you're going outside watching free ranging, free running animals. So that was easy. I could ride my bike over to Belmont dog park or somewhere else, and and, you know, and I would have, at the time, I'd have a recorder. It was before iPhones, take notes, take pictures, pretty easy. Could do it whenever I wanted to, because it wasn't that far from my home. I did field work in Antarctica some years ago, and that was pretty trying. I mean, it was during their summer, so the weather was really nice. It always hovered around 20 degrees Fahrenheit and a lot of sun, 18 hour light days. But the work was really exhausting. You had to walk over ice fields. They were killer whales and leopard seals in the water, and you didn't want to meet them, and just sitting all day watching, and then when we did the field work on coyotes. Mean, I constantly had a team of students, and I had a post doctoral fellow for fully the eight and a half years. There's nothing romantic about it, you know? I mean, you could sit for days and and not see anything. The animals don't behave because you're there. But it was something I really enjoyed, yeah, so that was pretty much it, right?
Chrissy 17:13
You're watching behaviors. Are you looking for patterns as well?
Marc 17:17
Well, you know, when you first begin, it's almost like a potpourri. It's like a crapshoot. You know, you have an idea of what you want to do, but when we started studying coyotes, we had an idea of what we wanted to do in the looking at the development of individual differences among litter mates and how that affected later life individual personalities. We were able to get some data on that, but you learn really fast what you can and cannot do, and things you can do easily you just do, and then the things that you can't do that easily, you either decide that they're not doable in the sense of getting enough data to make answer a question or a series of questions, or you focus on the things that are easier to do. What happens over time. I mean, after eight years and after years of studying birds at my house, I never threw out any data my students and I kept everything. So one area that I got into later in my career with still some 25 or 30 years ago, was the notion of fair play in dogs and wild justice, and that just came from watching animals, but I was able to go back and fish out some data, if you will. And what I love about field work, it's not like in some lab studies. My sister was an immunologist, and, you know, it was almost like in some studies and labs, you do the research in the morning and you publish a paper in the afternoon. I mean, yeah, I think our first paper on the coyote work was three years after we began, because we just didn't have enough data, right? But like I said, on the other hand, when I got an idea that, Oh, you know, these coyotes and wolves as well, they really play fairly, that was a big thing. You know, they they follow what I call the golden rules of play. So we were able to go back. At the time, I still was in touch with some of the students, although I had the field notes. So we were able to go back and actually find certain things on set marking as well. You have to worry someone's going to steal your data, because I would talk freely about it, and people would say, Well, you know, there's a lot of data theft in academics, which there is. And I said, I have to worry, because no one is going to be able to replicate three or four or five years of data overnight. Yeah, exactly. You know, they weren't studying coyotes, or I did some work on wolves and foxes. They're not going to be able to steal that data because, you know that they weren't out there for for probably more than an hour, maybe
Chrissy 19:45
Exactly. So I'm just going to go off on a little tangent here, because you brought this up, but talking about you being kind of empathetic when you were younger, with the animals emotions and feelings I do animal communication. Lot of intuitive work. And so I was just curious about that, how much of the work do you feel is intuitive? And I know you interviewed Penelope Smith for your book, you know, demystified. Do you just want to talk about that a little bit? I'm a
Marc 20:16
scientist, and I like hard facts, but, you know, I'm not married to science. I don't worship science, and I really mean that. And you know, the animal communication field, a lot of my colleagues would just write it off. It's fuzzy. Oh, you live in Boulder so, you know, you crystals and bells and all that. I just keep an open mind about it. It turns out that some of the animal communicators I know and I've met are really keen students of dog behavior. They know dog behavior. You know, it's not like they're coming in in some fluffy way. And I know enough people who I feel are credible are not going off on some you know, la la tangent, who have had some remarkable experiences talking with animal communicators. So my attitude is, keep the door open on it. Yeah, to me, science is about curiosity, so just keep it open. And if, and if you don't think something's reasonable or, you know, reliable, or whatever, that's fine, but, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water and say that, you know, and make claims that it's useless,
Chrissy 21:23
yeah, yeah. Well, I think that science is catching up with that part. I think that is science based, but we don't have the tools quite yet to measure it. And the Institute of Noetic Sciences is kind of going there, yeah, and they're doing a lot of, you know, experiential stuff and trying to gather data and research. So it's pretty cool. You know, it's a very interesting field, and I love combining, you know, my dog training and behavior consulting with animal communication, intuitive stuff.
Marc 21:56
I'm just really open to a lot of things that others are and being open has also been key to my practice of science and just being open, like, you know, this wild justice idea that animals have moral lives and, you know, and they play fairly, I think people shut the door too much on improbabilities or things that they just find fuzzy, you know. And the other thing is, you know, after just spending countless 1000s of hours watching wild coyotes and watching dogs all over the world, looking at foxes who lived near my house in the mountains, and you know, same as far as I can see, the same mother and father, the same married couple with their pups, you learn a lot. And yeah, it might not be publishable because you may not have enough data, or you can't do statistics on it, but I just think we should be open to anything that comes in just about and then you can just say, No, I'm not interested, or no, that's not reasonable. Look, look, what we do know, yeah,
Chrissy 22:57
I think being open is key for anything. So you already talked about a little bit your childhood growing up, but can you tell us a little bit about growing up and having, you know, having that bond with animals at an early age really affected your values beliefs, and your thoughts and feelings and attitudes towards animals. And has that changed your values and beliefs changed over the years? Or have they gotten stronger.
Marc 23:20
I think they've gotten stronger. Working with Michael Fox and being part of a program where they were killing cats to learn something about the neural aspects of different behavior, which I did not want to do, and I didn't do. No, I think early on, you know, I just knew what I wanted to do, and I was very concerned about the ethics of research, which I still am. Yeah, I think what I'm doing now, just when it blossomed and sort of came into fruition some decades ago, was really in my genes. I really feel that way, you know, in a non self serving way, I really work pretty hard, but I'd never really considered it to be work, per se. Yeah, and my friends always laugh, and they'll go, so you get paid to tell people why dogs sniff butts or hump and mount. I do.
Chrissy 24:10
You're like I do, and it's really cool and
Marc 24:12
it's really fun, but, but what I like about it too, is that, you know, the people I interact with pretty regularly, they know the importance of science, and they don't think it's it's just not like frivolous I feel, I feel really lucky. A lot of hours have gone into my career. And I don't mean that once again, in a self serving way, sometimes when you go to a dog park, you see things or interferes with other things in your day. But I've never thought about that going to a dog park early in the morning is a good way to start the day. Oh, yeah,
Chrissy 24:46
it's, it's amazing.
Marc 24:48
Yeah. You know, when you ask the question about field work, it's not easy. I mean, we were out when it was minus 62 degrees in Jackson, Wyoming. We were live trapping animals. So, you know. And we just wanted to make sure they were okay. And we go out, we do 24/7 watches, because you gotta figure out what these what animals are doing in the dark, through the night. You know, Are they active? Do they sleep a lot? And I've been really blessed with just really great students, just great acquaintances.
Chrissy 25:20
So have there been any dogs in particular in your life that influenced you, personally or professionally, or any challenges that you, you know, want to talk about, if you want to get a little bit vulnerable? Oh, I'm
Marc 25:31
not. I don't feel vulnerable at all. I mean, yeah. I mean, no. I mean, all the dogs I lived with, you know, over the years, because I was keen to, because I studied dogs, you know, had very distinct personalities. Sure, there were overlaps. I looked at them as individuals. A dog some years ago who rescued, I don't know much about her background, but she clearly had she had some emotional problems, because dogs get PTSD and suffer from different psychological disorders, and I learned a lot from her, you know, she was friendly. She had never walked steps up or down, and it was fun to watch the dog I was living with at the time. Teacher, almost like, stop and look back. And people said, well, you don't know what they're doing. No, I don't know what they were doing, but you know, my this little dog would just run up and down the steps like nothing. But he sometimes stopped look behind him, both going down and up the steps until she could do it. She I do know she had never seen steps before. She also needed downtime, and I write about her and dogs demystified. I've written about her in other places, where she just would get up and leave the room and go hide out, usually under a bed. And she was a hefty Malamute, so she would wiggle under the bed, then try to stand, sometimes dislodge the mattress. But then when she came out, she was fine. And over the years, you know, I've had people say, God, am I doing something wrong? My dog sometimes ups and leaves, you know, or my dog doesn't love me. And, you know, I would say it's not all about you. And I really meant that, I said, you know, so, so the point is, I don't know anything about her before we got her. Jethro was the same my last dog with whom I shared my home. He was, at least for almost a month, probably just wandering around Erie east of Boulder. But back then, there was nothing there. I mean, there were no homes. I mean, there were homes, but I mean, it was the country. So people would see him in the field. They feed him. I think somebody took him home once, and they made announcements at the Erie, I think elementary, middle and high school at the time, saying, Does anybody know anybody who lost a dog? This is, you know, because people have seen him. And then he spent some time at the Humane Society in Boulder, because no one came and claimed him. So it's probably a month or two at least. So I took him home, and he was a marshmallow. When I met him, our eyes locked, I mean, really, across the facility. And when we went out back, where there were ducks and geese and sheep and dogs and, you know, whoever was there, he loved everyone. Oh, and at the time, I was living with a sort of young, yeah, well, she was probably middle aged Malamute. And they said, you know, they knew I knew animals, but they said, take them home. And I said, I will, because I could have easily said, Look, I know he'll get along well, you don't they got along royally. And you know, he had these idiosyncrasies through his life. He didn't like having his front paws touched. He was pretty leery of men with baseball caps. People said, why? And I said, I have no idea. I didn't know you know anything about him for the first nine months of life, but he just turned out to be the marshmallow, who he was when I met him at the Humane Society of the Boulder Valley. I mean, he was just a wonderful dog. I lived in the mountains, so I didn't mind if he barked. We didn't have neighbors, but, you know, he didn't bark incessantly. But if he was sleeping and someone came to the door of my house, so I had an outside office, he'd go nuts. There was only once when I thought that he was picking up a cue, probably smell or a sound, where I wouldn't have wanted to let him out and attack somebody I just he was on the border, as far as I could tell. So I called the trainer, and I remember she said, You need a trainer, and I do. And she stopped that behavior. It was so rapid that it was under a minute. She said, let me just, let me just be with Jethro alone for a while. You know she had met me and him together. And you know, she been, you know, good trainer. She talked to me and she talked to him, and then she said, Okay, I want to just play with him a bit one trial. You know, I don't, and I don't remember what she did, to be honest with you, but it was some food award of anticipating him jumping and having a treat, right? And. Saying, Stay, you know, whatever it was. But anyway, she was incredulous, I needed a trainer, but she but she was really nice too, because she said, I'm glad, because there's a lot of people I go to and they go, Oh, I know everything there is about dogs. And, well, if you know everything there is about dogs, why can't you get your dog to stop? Right?
Chrissy 30:21
If people are open to it, and it sounds like, I mean, just who you are, you are open to watching them and learning from them and them being a teacher to you, I feel like, I feel like that's what dogs are. They're they're teachers to us
Marc 30:36
absolutely and I all you know, once again, nothing new to you. But you know, sometimes I'll just talk about dog teachers, not trainers. I'll talk about education. You know, dog educate. You know, human. Usually it's human educators. You know, they're, you're educating the human, yeah, a lot of scientists, a lot of academics, and maybe non academics can be pretty damn arrogant about No, no. It all couple of years ago, especially referring to dogs. I wrote an article called something like, the more I know, the more I say I don't know, right? Because you're always learning. I mean, after eight and a half years of watching coyotes, and I was figuring it out for another interview I did a few, few weeks ago, however many days that was, you know, eight and a half times, 365,000 I'll bet you, during that eight and a half year period, there wasn't more than 10 or 20 days where there wasn't someone out looking for or watching the coyotes who were there. And of course, there was, you know, some of them passed away just due to old age. Yeah, couple disappeared. We have no idea. You know what happened to them, right? But I think if you're doing that kind of stuff, you know, you don't have to claim of to being, you know, like canine omniscient. You know a lot, but there's things that happen and you go, my God, I didn't, I didn't know that, right? Or I've never, or I've never seen it before, right?
Chrissy 31:57
Yeah, you've written a boatload of books. Was it, like, 31 or something?
Marc 32:02
I don't know, yeah, yes, okay, yeah.
Chrissy 32:05
Do you have a favorite? And if so, why? I know that's a hard question,
Marc 32:09
you know, I really don't I mean, I have to say that writing the 10 trusts with Jane Goodall, who's a good friend still and colleague, was really fun working with her. She's great. She works hard. You know, people said, oh, yeah, so you did the work. No, no, no, we worked really. It was totally symmetrical, so, but that was fun, you know, getting to know her more. It was a couple of years after I met her. You know, I really like the emotional lives of animals. Like I said, the second edition just came out in April. What I like about it is that it really got me thinking more deeply about animal emotions. I never doubted them, you know, I never doubted animals, including dogs, were sentient beings, but dogs demystified. My learning curve was really big. I remember the day after I signed the contract, I think I was sitting here alone, thinking, What did you just do? You know. So I sat down every day for about a month, and without doing anything, I was reading, I had was writing two other books at the time, and I made a list alphabetically and just added to it. And in a couple of days, I think I had three or 400 entries. And I think the book itself probably now has 600 700 or 800 I don't know, but I what I really liked about it was, number one, like I said, I wrote it because I really want the dog human bond to be just really favorable, especially for the dogs, but also for the people. You know, I wanted to really stress the fact that before you get a dog, you need to pass dog 101, look at dogs as individuals. And a lot of these are just stem from my background as an ethologist, where you know careful observation is be careful observation is really the basis for everything. So the stressing the fact that simple explanations don't always work. I got a few books recently. I'm not going to mention them, and I really mean that where you know that people who don't study dogs writing about dogs, because everybody thinks they can write about dogs and write about kids, you know, saying, Well, if the tail is out wagging this way, this is what it means it doesn't. And you've got to pay attention to visual or factory and auditory signals, if you will. So that's been a lot of fun, because it's always been sort of the core of how I talk to people on running on trails or dog parks or something, is you can get a lot of information out of the tail or ear positions, but you've got to look at the dog as a whole. So that's kind of a long answer to the fact that, you know, I don't have a favorite book, but maybe these are among you know, I don't know.
Chrissy 34:48
I think what you're doing is you're just really laying a foundation for shifting the dog educational culture up another level. How you were saying about. Yeah, like, I don't even, I want to come up with another term besides dog trainer, or, like you were saying, like a dog educator or dog teacher, because I feel like if someone who works with dogs and humans is doing a good job, they're not just training the dog. You know, it goes way deeper than that. So there needs to be a shift, and upward shift in how we work with dogs and humans together, right,
Marc 35:24
right? And the fun of it is, as you educate people, you know, I do it maybe as a scientist, or, you know, a dog lover, and you do it more as a trainer, but a dog lover, and there's a science of dog training. You make it fun for them, and you stress that this has to be a two way street, negotiable relationship, give and take. Your buttons are going to be pressed because the dog isn't trying to piss you off by doing something. They just maybe don't know what you want them to do, right?
Chrissy 35:56
Exactly. Okay, so I would love to talk about your relationship with two specific people, one, Mary and Julie, who's a friend of mine, and she's also a dog trainer and behavior consultant, and I know you've written some articles in Psychology Today with her. So one, and then second, Jane Goodall, you know, who's a zoologist and primatologist, anthropologist, and just how have they influenced you in the work you do? Yeah,
Marc 36:23
it's a great question. I met Mary giving a talk in Boulder. Guess Jessica and I were giving a talk in 2019 about unleashing your dog. And Mary came and asked great questions, and we chatted afterwards. That was just beginning of a wonderful friendship. She's a wonderful woman. She's a great dog trainer. You know, she has a she's certified, she has a great background in animal behavior, and she's a damn good, positive force, free dog trainer, yeah, so we talked a lot. We we've co written some articles, you know, for Psychology Today, what my friendship with Mary has really done is kept me really in tune with, if you will, practical problems on the ground. You know who you see. You know you see as well. You know. And what trainers do you know? And appreciating that every dog is an individual doesn't matter if you've had 10 Golden Retrievers or 30 beagles, every dog, or even siblings or litter mates. You know, they're all different. The importance of knowing dog behavior in detail so that you can help solve whatever situation is at hand. And you know, you know where she's a lovely woman. And I mean, whenever I talk to her about dogs. I'm always learning something. Yeah, I met Jane decades ago, maybe interacting at meetings. Yeah, I was, I mean, 25 some years ago, it turns out, we had a common friend in Boulder, but neither of us knew this, and I was editing the first edition of the Encyclopedia of animal rights and animal welfare. So I was put in touch with Jane. I asked if she'd write the forward. She said she would. And then she was coming to Boulder. And so that was when really things got rolling in terms of working with her roots and shoots program, writing some essays with her, and also writing the 10 trusts and working really closely with the roots and shoots organization. You know, they say for kids, but in Boulder, I worked, I did 17 or 18 years the Boulder County Jail within the roots and shoots group. I worked at Golden West, which I think still exists. I'm not quite sure if it does, but assisted living. And I worked in different schools, and I remember one day I worked with kids four years old. I worked with the inmates. And that evening, there was a celebratory ball at Golden West, and there were people there who are 100 years old. So I went from working with four and five year olds, 200 year olds and some you know, men who were incarcerated, right? And we still work together. I co chair her ethics committee. We're doing a young kids book that will hopefully get young kids to think a lot about animals, roots and shoots, as animals, people in the environment, ape. So we're doing a book that we hope will stimulate more interest and just get kids to follow their dreams. You know, that's Jane. You know, a couple of Jane's messages is, follow your dreams, follow your heart. Every individual can make a difference. You don't have to found a movement. You don't have to be a billionaire. You just have to act locally and think globally.
Chrissy 39:36
Right? That's really cool. Has she influenced you in any way of your work. Years
Marc 39:42
ago, you know when she went to study chimpanzees for six months. That's still going on today, 65 years later, yeah, so she named the champs, she talked about their individual personalities, and that was found upon you. But my mentor, Michael Fox, was a real fan of that, and so it did. Because I remember when I was writing my dissertation and writing a few papers for publications, people would say, Well, you know, we don't name animals and we don't talk about personalities. And Jane did, and I really mean that, you know, at the time, there were very few people doing it, but she naturally did it, and I did too, and I was thrilled that she was doing it, and at least I could have an authority, you know, because I was told, No, no, no, you know, you can't name the dogs or the wolves or the other animals you're studying. And I went, Well, of course, you can their names. They have individual personalities. Yeah, they gave me grief. I said, Well, Dr Jane Goodall is doing. And at the time, she wasn't the icon she is now, really was. And, oh yeah. I mean, when we work together now and chat, I'm always learning something from her. Yeah,
Chrissy 40:54
that's awesome. So can we just talk for a minute? I always say his last name wrong. But David mech, Meech. Meech, yeah, I always say it wrong. So he did some study and research that he published about wolves. You know, it was this whole Alpha dominance thing, and then it got redacted. So that is a whole thing, I guess. What I want to ask you is because that research that came out really affected how people interact with dogs and the whole Alpha dominant thing. So what do you want to say about that?
Marc 41:28
Yeah, well, it's a good question. I mean, number one, I've known Dave now for 55 years. We're still in contact. Yeah, he was very cautious about using those terms, although he did use them, I wrote a paper. One of my first papers for Psychology Today was on dominance, and I had a footnote there, from a letter he or an email or something he sent me that he'd never made the claims that some people said he did. Yeah, but the importance of Dave's work in zillions of areas. Not only this was that, you know, you just have to be really careful when you use those terms alpha and dominant, but ethologists mostly are. So if I talk about a dominant dog or coyote or wolf or elephant, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily being assertive and aggressive. It just means they're controlling the behavior of other animals. So it's a no brainer. I mean, it happens in, you know, from chimpanzees to dogs to wolves to fishes to invertebrates, no. So that's really important and but when I wrote this paper, I had a few dog people, one who was just a particular pain in the butt, who kept yelling dominance and alpha are myths? Well, they're not myths. And if he had been a little nicer, I might have been more open to some of the things that he was saying. But in, you know, in all honesty, I said I've been studying animal behavior for decades. There's no animals in which you don't find some kind of social hierarchy, right? So I feel very comfortable using the terms, but what I learned from other dog trainers in particular who were nicer than this guy was just got to be really careful, because then you've got people like season Milan and others who say you should be the alpha dog. And what that translates into is sometimes brutalizing dogs, shocking them, and doing all the things. So I'm going to stand by it. I've written a few papers for Psych today on that, and I've only had one, if you will, really negative email, which I don't answer because I don't answer ad hominem attacks on me. So it's really useful, like if you tell me a dog is an Alpha Dog at a dog park. I don't immediately think that the dog is highly aggressive and dangerous. I think that somehow he or she is able to control the behavior of other dogs. And yeah, they may relent. They may reluctantly relent, but it's not like if they don't do what they're quote, supposed to do, which is often human interpreted, yep, that they're going to get beat up, that's all. So it's instructive to me to think that, oh, Joe is an alpha dog, or Mary's an Alpha Dog. It just tells me about how they tend to interact with other animals. But I did understand, finally, from a few people that they were very careful. But then I wrote an article, and it may have been in one of my dog books too, saying just because people misuse the terms is not a reason to get rid of them. They're extremely useful. And then Rick McIntyre, who has just published his fifth book on the wolves of Yellowstone. He has the word alpha in some of his titles, and he knows wolf behavior better than anyone in the world, but it's the same thing. He's not necessarily saying that this alpha female, 06 who we wrote a book about, or this alpha male, another. Individual is necessarily unusually aggressive and injurious, just that they control the behavior of other individuals.
Chrissy 45:11
Yeah, it's, yeah. I think a big problem with it is people interpret it in a human way, as, you know, being alpha, you're in charge and you're in control, and I'm gonna, you know, make you do thing, you know, just it's a very negative connotation. And same thing with dominance is like, I'm in control. I have the power. Whereas in the animal world, it's social. Dominance is just like having access to more of the valuable resources or the alpha are considered parents, basically, you know, mom and dad are, and, yeah, in the animal world. And so it's a matter of, like, you're saying is, like, we need to educate people the correct terminology and what it means. That's
Marc 45:55
exactly right. Chrissy, I mean, use the terms correctly. And they're, they're very instructive. They illustrate what's going on. So when I was in the field studying coyotes, and actually with penguins in Antarctica, people would say, Well, yeah, you know, Harry or Mary the coyote, they're dominant, or they're being they're very Alpha. It didn't mean anything except I knew what their behavioral profile looked like, right? You know, and a lot of the people, in all honesty, never had a problem with talking about omega. That's just another Greek letter, but it often refers to the lowest ranking member of a group. That was fine. So I said, No, you can't. No, no, no, no, no, because it plays a large role in how you might view an individual and maybe mischaracterize them or their intentions when they do a certain behavior,
Chrissy 46:47
exactly like so, for instance, you know, I work with a lot of dogs that show quote, unquote aggressive behaviors, and the underlying reason is they're not trying to be dominant or alpha. They're trying to get distance from a trigger that's scaring them. I mean, that's just one example. That's all no
Marc 47:03
absolute. That's a perfect example, right? Exactly, or they're trying to stop something from happening that they don't like. And, you know, I've seen situations with wild canids, and I've seen them at Valmont dog park where an animal is just trying to tell another animal I don't like that. So they might be aggressive, but it's not that they're Alpha. There's no other way to stop the other animal from doing it. So it could be a quote lower ranking animal saying, No, you can't do that. I don't like it. So it would be an animal who you would not necessarily label as alpha behaving in an assertive and I really distinguish between assertive and aggressive. What right? So I think people have to get over it. I mean, I mean, I really mean that, you know, and I wrote, I wrote an article a year or two ago that alpha dogs and alpha wolves really do exist. I got tons of texts, a couple texts, but emails, and only one person called me an ass. I thought that was pretty good.
Chrissy 48:07
Yeah, there's just a lot. There's a lot of unlearning to do. There's a lot of education to do. But the problem is is it's the way some people treat their dogs, and some, quote, unquote, trainers train dogs. It's really damaged dogs and the relationship with a human because of that whole alpha, dominant mistaken understanding. Well,
Marc 48:29
I think maybe what, maybe this is related to what I said before. I thought it spilled over into training. So you're going to be the leader of the pack? Well, no, you're not. The leader of a wolf pack is not necessarily the most dominant. They might be alpha in the sense of controlling the behavior and and like I said, Rick McIntyre knows more about wolves than anyone in the world. He's has over 100,000 sightings and observations of the wolves in Yellowstone, and he freely uses the term, and he uses it correctly. Yeah, yeah,
Chrissy 49:04
thank you for that squirrel moment. So I really wanted to push home the point about dominance and pack leader and alpha and all that bad information that has really messed up a lot of human and dog relationships. So to be clear, in behavior science and dogs, dominance is about gaining access to a mutually desired resource. It's not about oppressing the other dogs in the social group. So this is called social dominance. So sometimes one dog gets access to something in a certain situation, and another time another dog will get access to something. It's more about who wants it more. It's not about oppression. And so in humans, dominance is the aspect of social hierarchy that arises from agonistic interactions involving actual aggression or threats and intimidation. And sadly, humans pass this on to dogs, where as dogs don't have that. Kind of hierarchy or aggression. And same thing with alpha, the term alpha in the dog world, it's just the parents. You know, it's the parents. So I just wanted to be clear about that, so we're using the terms correctly and not causing a lot of problems in our relationship with our dogs. Is there anything that's weighing on your mind or any negative wisdom that you would like to share with our audience?
Marc 50:26
We've covered a lot here, once again, I would say, getting back to bringing your dog into your home and your heart, just understand that it is an amazing commitment and responsibility and that it's okay to decide you don't want to do it for the first time at a particular time in your life, or you don't want to do it again. So, yeah, I would just say it's a huge responsibility. Become fluent in dog Don't boss your dog around. There's no reason to shock them or yell at I mean, you know this as a dog trainer, teacher, yeah. And I think in the end, what you come out with is, you know, asking for the dogs consent people, you know, that's a big word now in dog, and maybe not as in cat training and and teaching, it's a huge term, but it should be in dogs, is you should try to come to an agreement with your dog every single time you ask them to do something that they might not want to do, or or vice versa, they asked you to do something. Right? You can't be there 100% of the time for them, and they can't be there 100% of the time for you. So, you know, consent is really important. And just get over yourself. I mean, and is that it's not all about you. I really mean that you've brought another sentient being into your life, so you better just be damn sure that you're giving them the best life possible. And I know some people who are wonderful people who, for various reasons, have decided that they can no longer have a dog. A lot of it comes down to illness or physical, you know, limitations. Find other forever loving home, and don't let people guilt you into keeping a dog who you you can't possibly give what they need. You know. So some people you know say, oh, you know you're advocating playing musical dogs. No, I'm not. I'm just saying that. I know some people who just no longer can give a dog the life the dog deserves. So just don't dump them in the street or dump them with anybody or abandon them to a shelter. Find somebody, if you can, who can, who you trust, and can give them a loving, safe and trusting home. Yeah,
Chrissy 52:39
that's awesome. That's great. So if people want to reach you or get a hold of you or find you, where they where can they do that? I
Marc 52:47
think that best place is my home page, markbeuf.com, okay, there's contact information there. Well, thank
Chrissy 52:54
you so much for being on my pleasure. This
Marc 52:57
is wonderful. I love, I love where these or free flowing conversations go. I
Chrissy 53:02
know it's fun. Yeah. All right. All right, thanks, Mark. Well, there you go. Thanks for listening today, and I hope you learned something new. Maybe had a aha moment or gained some new insight. Maybe you're looking at your dog a little differently today, either way, whatever you've learned. If you have questions for either mark or I, please feel free to reach out to us. Dogs truly are special beings and can change lives if we're open to what they have to teach us, this not only impacts you and your dog, but can also make a positive impact on the world. If you're finding value in this podcast, the best way to support us is by leaving a review up to five stars and sharing it with your family, friends and fellow dog lovers around the world. Lastly, I'd love to connect with you. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook at the nature of animals, and visit my website at www dot theanimal nature.com, until next time, be curious, show compassion and have courage.
