Chrissy 0:01
Chris, welcome to The Dogs of our lives podcast with me, your host, Chrissy Messick, in these short digging deeper episodes, we'll dive deeper into interesting topics that arise from my guest interviews, those areas of dog training, behavior, consulting and interspecies communication that provoke more questions that I'd love to answer for you as an expert in the field. And speaking of questions, how well do you really know your dog? Why not try out my quiz, which is linked in the show notes the questions and the answer might surprise you. Now, let's dig in. Today, I'm talking with one of my clients, Jamie prierra, and her dog, Winnie, about their transformative journey together. We discuss where they started and where they are today in regard to training, mindset, emotional growth and how they did it as a team. We talk about how this process has been life changing for her and Winnie and the lessons learned. Each of our dogs has something to teach us, and this episode explores what that looks like for just one dog, Guardian and her dog. This is just one story, but there are so many more to hear. I hope you enjoy listening to this one and reflect on your own journey with your dog. Are you feeling frustrated or disconnected from your dog, like you're speaking totally different languages? Well, you're not alone. After years of this idea simmering in my head and helping hundreds of clients go through this journey, I finally created my brand new signature course, understanding you and your dog where traditional training ends, true connection begins your path to thriving with your dog. Now this just isn't another dog training course. It's a transformational journey that helps you build a relationship based on trust, communication and deep connection, while at the same time working through frustrating behaviors. You'll learn to truly understand your dog's needs, behaviors and emotions, while developing the tools and skills to create a peaceful, thriving life together. So are you ready to feel empowered, confident and totally in sync with your dog? Head over to the link in the show notes to learn more and join now the doors close on Thursday, April 24 at midnight, so hurry, and I can't wait to see you there. So Jamie Pereira and Winnie we have with us today. So thank you for coming on and talking about your relationship together.
Jamie 2:21
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Chrissy 2:24
This is kind of what it's all about for me, and helping others to to, kind of learn to do the same, because that's what I felt like my journey has been with dogs that I've had is just, you know, learning how to have a relationship and growing myself. So I've been working with you and Winnie for how long now has it been,
Jamie 2:43
oh my gosh, at least six years. Yeah,
Chrissy 2:46
and it's been off and on. It's not like every week we, you know, if so, something comes up, you know, you reach out, and we kind of figure it out and stuff like that. But can you tell us just a little bit about you and Winnie, yeah,
Jamie 3:01
I was having relationship issues, and what makes a relationship better than getting a second dog? So we went ahead and got Winnie, like eight years ago, and had another dog, Elvis as part of the mix. Winnie quickly proved to be special and different. She came from a shelter in Tennessee, but we had picked her up in Chicago, and she had just had a litter of puppies, and it was actually a very beautiful scene of on Christmas day, we were walking dogs at the shelter, and this dog came out, and she was super low to the ground, and she wouldn't really stand up. And my partner at the time and myself, like, kind of looked at her, and we were like, We want her. It was kind of the opposite of what people normally have. But there was this immediate, like, draw to to her energy, she and Elvis got along immediately, but we quickly found out that she was reactive to other dogs, and not entirely sure why Elvis was the chosen one at that moment, but he was and then slowly started to realize there were other things with her, like in terms of affection and wanting to be on her own, and there were interesting things that were popping up in interesting ways, and they were showing up in what we what we would call before I met you, as bad behaviors. So
Chrissy 4:31
can you tell us a little bit about you and Winnie's relationship before we met? And I guess in general, your attitude or beliefs and values toward animals in general. What was your kind of mindset at that point?
Jamie 4:43
Yeah, so Winnie and I had a really interesting relationship, because right after my partner at the time and I adopted her from the shelter, I was gone for a month to Cuba, so she was alone with my partner and Elvis, and when I came home. Home, there was very much a like, Who are you and why are you in my bed? Vibe from Winnie, like I was coming into her space and not knowing much about her and not having spent much time with her. It was sort of a weird place for me to be in, so in terms of, like, my general attitude and beliefs and values with dogs and animals like I like dogs. I am interested in their behavior more so now than ever. But I have never really considered myself a dog person, and then suddenly I had two dogs, and was confused by that, and I didn't know how to feel like I didn't know how to properly communicate with them. My relationship with Winnie was tough at the start. It was pulling on the leash. It was not showing affection. It was not really growling, but not happy when I was like, Hey, this is actually where I sleep at night. Like you can sleep at the foot of the bed, or you can sleep next to us, and there was just this kind of tension between us. So for kind of a long time, more than I like to actually admit, it kind of felt like we were just coexisting, and that Elvis and I were really the ones with the relationship, and Elvis was the reason why I fully think that, like there are dog and people relationships out there that are like, meant to coincide, but I didn't really feel that with Winnie until Elvis died. When Elvis died in 2021 Winnie and I were now alone together, and having separated from my partner many years before this, I like have this moment of just kind of feeling like I looked at her, she looked at me, and we're kind of like, okay, it's just us now, and it was a switch. It's been a switch ever since. So it's been super curious and different behaviors, and our relationship has changed and evolved, and we've been each other's teachers, for sure,
Chrissy 6:58
yeah. And so is that those things that came up, is that what made you seek out help?
Jamie 7:04
Yeah, I haven't quite figured out exactly. What I would say was the difference when Elvis passed, but I think that there was definitely a shift in dynamics, as there is when, when there's a whole being missing from your home. I think we became closer, but closer in a way that was like, well, we've known each other for six years. How can you really get closer? And turns out you can. And I think there were things that maybe she was trying to communicate to me before that I was just kind of distracted with Elvis by and so I wasn't seeing that. I wasn't hearing her, and now that it's just us, quirky things were coming up when I first reached out, it was definitely the like, pulling on leash and dog aggression that felt completely overwhelming to the point of not being able to go for a walk in Boulder, having to, like, make sure nobody was out in our the Woods by Our house. And then it kind of turned into anxieties in the car, and it turned into anxieties at my part at my new partner's house, and it turned into anxieties at night. And it's just kind of been this like flow of things that have progressively, we've progressively dealt with with you, and it's been incredible to like, watch that progress of like, almost like, building blocks of little things that are coming out now that it's just she and I, yeah,
Chrissy 8:28
yeah, as you're talking about all the things that we've gone through together. So what, what has this process been like for you to Can I truly understand her and her behaviors and meeting her needs as well as meeting your own. How has that process been for you?
Jamie 8:44
Um, really hard, and has felt very like isolating until I reach out to you and you quickly confirm, oh, yes, this is this is normal, like people go through this, dogs go through this. Understanding her has been kind of complicated. And because Elvis was so easy in the sense of, like he would go everywhere he got along with everyone, he had anxiety when we weren't together, but I could bring him everywhere, so it didn't fully matter. So now to have this, other animal that is just kind of the polar opposite of it has also brought out this piece of me. It like gets me emotional talking about it that, like, after my relationship ended, I was a brand new person. I cocooned and I created and I became this, like, very different butterfly than what I was, and that also affected Winnie, and she went through that process as well. Her world was rocked, and a lot changed in a very short period of time. And I was not giving enough credit to those facts. So I think that what's been super interesting to work with you on. And is meeting her needs in a way that doesn't feel I don't feel upset by like. I don't feel like this dog is high maintenance. I'm dealing with a high maintenance dog. It's more like she's literally telling me that she needs something and I don't know how to how to understand it. So I need someone you to help me understand it, and in that process, it is just brought so much joy and connection and tears and frustration, all the things that come along with growing. But I think ultimately what it stems down to is that we are all. We all go through growth processes. And while I would I was seeing mine and not seeing hers, when there were changes in our world. So it's been a really interesting way to reframe what I'm doing now and how I how I make decisions without anxiety. It's
Chrissy 10:54
so interesting because, well, just two things. One, I remember you saying when we first started working together, that you were open and ready to learn. I remember you literally saying that, and that's what needs to happen. Like, if you're going to go through this process, you have to be open to it and ready to learn. And then two, there are so many people, and I believe this too. You know that believe that dogs are our soul dogs. They, they come and do our lives for reasons to teach us some things, if we are open to it. And you know, Elvis was there for a reason to help you with something I don't you probably know what that is, but then Winnie is just teaching you something completely different. You're just in a different place right now. Yeah,
Jamie 11:39
100% and I think one of the beauties of that is I had tried other training, other training places before, but none of them felt right, like it just wasn't that, like Spark wasn't there, and now you're like the trainer of our block on in the bar, Kay and Ward, but when I met you, I remember feeling that click of like I am ready for this, like I am ready for change, and I'm ready to put in the time and the work that it takes, and it's still happening. And so being I think you're totally right that, like you have to literally be open to it and know that it's not a quick fix. And I do truly believe, like I've now that I've done enough of this with Winnie and you i i see what she offers me like there is a level of patience and flexibility that without being a mom, I don't know that I'd ever be tested with and she tests it, but it has given me the ability to have patience and understanding in so many other scenarios, whether it's work or driving or our political climate, like there is patience that I am able to have that would not have been possible without her. And I think there's a piece of again, growth and change in who I was to who I am now that she was just helping me facilitate getting out more like Elvis could do, if I was tired or I didn't feel like it, we could do like, two really short walks a day and call it good, and he'd be fine. Where Winnie is, like a minimum of 240 minute walks, and that's like running and chasing and digging. And so there was, like, this physical aspect that has come to my life that I never expected, where, like, I want to work out I walk with a weighted vest now I like, I want to keep up with this animal that loves me, that I love, who I love. Like, it's just this beautiful growth, for sure. Yeah,
Chrissy 13:39
and I think people go through different ways of healing themselves. You know, everybody has their own path, and for some people, it's through their dog. Yeah, and that's what I love doing, is helping people and their dogs heal together.
Jamie 13:53
And it felt so far away before I met you. It felt like I'm going through this, this crazy change in time, and I've got this dog I have to handle, and I can't handle her, and it felt so distanced, and so like not family, not in a groove. And so, yeah, I think that's been the, the biggest, most impactful change.
Chrissy 14:16
So can you share a moment when you realize something had really changed in your relationship with Winnie. Is there something that you can think of where you're like, I know that's kind of a lot to ask.
Jamie 14:26
No, it's a really good one. It's a good one because there's a couple. There's one where, like, when I finally went through and built a dog fence with the help of my new partner and got Winnie a dog house, an outside dog house with like a heating pad, I realized how independent she is. It was a learning lesson for me of how independent I could be. And that was kind of a mind blowing moment of like going from Why doesn't my dog want to spend time with me to. Like, Oh, crap. Maybe I'm actually co dependent. And like, I should be able to be alone while she's allowed to be alone. So there was this really beautiful moment of like, oh, actually, she just likes, she's just independent, and that's okay. And then one of the biggest ones has been recently, where she is been amazing, off leash with recall to the point where I finally feel like we have gotten it. And it has been however many years I've been trying to do this with her poorly at first, and then with your guidance. Um, that like I look at her when, when she's running, and I call, I call her name, and I say, come. Like, I have zero thought that she's gonna just take off. And it has been this moment of like we're out there in the woods. I call her name, I say, come. She turns and looks at me, and I'm just like, kind of waiting for her to just like, take off in the opposite direction, but she comes so happy running towards me. And it's like every time is a celebration for both of us, and it that feels like we've really gotten it. We're like, there's trust on both ends, there's understanding on both ends. I'm like, girl, do what you want to do, but stay in my eyesight. And when I say come, I mean it. And she's like, okay, I get it.
Chrissy 16:17
It's almost like you have an invisible leash or a connection, like, there's this something connecting you. Yeah, it's, it's hard to explain, but it's almost like an invisible leash.
Jamie 16:29
It feels like it, because there are times where, like, when we are on leash and I do the click of, like, I'm going to keep her close for whatever reason, something someone's passing by, or whatever the situation is, I don't even, I don't even click the leash. I just, like, put my thumb on it, and she comes and stands next to me. So there's this, like, understanding that has come from the work that we've done that now is really feels like the the base of the solid, the solidity of our relationship, is there. Yeah,
Chrissy 16:59
that's awesome. If you can put a number to this, how much of it has been working with Winnie's needs, issues like teaching her thing, and how much of it has been working? What's under the hood for you? Would
Jamie 17:12
you say? I would not have been able to answer that question until, like, the last six months or so? I think because I kept blaming them on Winnie's needs and issues and not like self reflecting on, hey, maybe part of this is me. And so I kind of feel like it's 6040 like, 60% Winnie's needs and issues and 40% my own reflection, and only putting a little bit more on her end of things, because of recent developments with pain and anxiety. Whereas before that it was, it felt very 5050, of like I need to work on being independent, and you need to work on trust and meeting each other, like with our own issues that way. But I think right now I would say like 6040
Chrissy 17:59
makes sense. I think I it clicked for me when with my boxers, like I was so upset about something that one of my Docs did, and I was just angry at her, and then I just stopped, and I reflected onto myself, and I was like, why am I so angry? And then from that moment on, I was like, oh, I need to look at my own, my own stuff too. So important, yeah,
Jamie 18:23
yeah. And mine was coming up as, like, sadness. And what does that feel like when you're hanging out with someone who's always sad? Like, of course you don't want to hang out with them, and of course you don't trust them, because they don't trust themselves. And there was just so much that I needed to realize and close my eyes for a minute to be aware of in order to, like, actually see what her issues were, because she was telling me, yeah, yeah.
Chrissy 18:48
So what part, or any parts of the process have felt most impactful or empowering for you personally,
Jamie 18:56
I think knowing that there's an answer for most of it, and that it sometimes takes a long time, and you have to be patient, and the answer is not right there, and it's a lot of trial and error. And that, I think, to me, has felt the most empowering, because I am. I tend to be a quick fixer, or someone who wants to, like, have the answer right away, and so I know it feels kind of like the opposite of like, well, how is that empowering? It's empowering because it like, gives me the ability to know that there are other options. So like, if this thing we're trying first doesn't work, we'll try another one, and we'll learn from both of those things, and building up into the final decision of what works, is super empowering, and knowing that every piece is a clue to the next step.
Chrissy 19:44
Exactly We talked about kind of learning skills for Winnie and then looking at what's under the hood for you. But would you say, is there anything else that's part of this process that that has come up? Yeah,
Jamie 19:56
when you add a new partner into any relationship? That's a lot. That has definitely been something. And so I'm very lucky to be in a partnership where with someone who originally was like, I never want to have a dog, and I showed up with two. So I've been very grateful to have been accepted under those circumstances, and it's been a really important thing for our relationship. But the communication in our relationship, and you know, the patience that I have maintained is something that, like, he often comments on of like, I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you stay so patient. It's just like, reaffirming, and it feels really good to have someone recognize that and also recognize that it's not natural for us to stay calm at three in the morning when your dog is like, having an anxiety attack. So I would say it's been really interesting. We've we've stayed in the same home the entire time I've had her. And so I'd be curious, like, what that would look like if I was moving somewhere, but introducing a new relationship and then introducing dog friends. Never, ever did I think it was going to be possible for Winnie to have dog friends. And just the other day, a picture on my phone came up of it was Elvis and three, three other dogs. It was Winnie, her friend Jesse and her friend Kamali. And it was like, I had four dogs all of a sudden. And I was like, wait, what? Like, there's there's harmony, and this is beautiful. And so that's been really cool to, like, measure my own anxiety around other dogs and interactions to the point where I'm like, you know, maybe 10% worried if we see a dog that we don't know, and that's pretty much it.
Chrissy 21:44
And then the nice thing is, you know what to do now exactly, and
Jamie 21:49
it works every single time. I am so confident in those skills that she knows what the what the drill is at this point, so she's not worried about it either. We have a routine that like, it's a routine if she's off leash and the other dog is on leash. It's a routine if she's on leash and the dog is off. It's a routine if they're both on, she just sees the situation as as I do, and is able to be like, Okay, this is what I do now. And what a beautiful thing, awesome. I
Chrissy 22:16
would say the other it sounds like to me, what you're saying is the other thing is, along with winning learning skills and you looking at your own responses, is how it generalizes, or the ripple effect outside of your world. I mean outside of you two or you three, I should say, yeah, how you just are in the world, just that ripple effect on on other people as well, yeah, and
Jamie 22:41
I think I wasn't giving enough credit to how impactful that is like, especially as an example of like, when we were recently going on a camper trip, and I was like, I know she loves camper trips, but we're dealing with so many other things with her right now, with pain and anxiety, and it just it would have changed the entire trip had she gone? Because places we would have gone, I would have had to think about certain things, and it would have made me anxious, of like, is she going to be in pain? Is she going to have an anxiety attack and we can't go anywhere because we're in the middle of the desert in the camper, and with those things on my mind, kind of ruminating, she feels that she knows that, so she takes that on. And I can't emphasize enough how, how much I appreciate, appreciated you saying she'll be better off at home, like we're not there yet, and go have an actual vacation instead of this, like swirly, anxiety driven type of vacation. And I think we just get so caught up in like, what our best lives for our dogs are in a selfish kind of way. Like, of course, when I was hiking, I wanted to have a dog with me. Like, it sucks hiking alone. And there were multiple times that I looked around and I was like, she would be so hot on this walk right now, she would hate this. And there were times where I'd be like, we're going somewhere, and she wouldn't be able to go, so she'd have to stay in the camper. And like, she would hate that. So it was really just, it's just ever evolving. And I think that's not something I was ever prepared for.
Chrissy 24:19
They surprise you so much, right?
Unknown Speaker 24:21
Oh my gosh, constantly.
Chrissy 24:23
So how has the process changed? And how you how you respond to Winnie now, if either of you are struggling with something, versus how you did before, how you respond versus maybe how you used to react?
Jamie 24:38
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think I used to just react immediately and try to fix it, try to fix it, try to fix it. And now I'm like, more aware of, kind of like the scientific method of just like thinking it through, not immediately reacting, and just kind of like seeing the scene as a whole, as opposed to. Are trying to just fix the moment in the moment right now, let's do this. I think that's exactly it. Instead of reacting, I'm kind of realizing what steps I can try, and also the piece of being frustrated versus the piece of like, okay, you're actually telling me something because during the day you're not like this. And so there is something wrong and I'm not. It's not fair for me to be reactive when there's something that comes up for you. It's very inconvenient when it's at like, two in the morning and I'm exactly, go get your water. Yeah, exactly. Never again will I get up at two in the morning to get water? I'd rather be dehydrated for the rest of my life. I think that that's the biggest thing, is like, not to get reactive with her, because that makes nothing better. And it's not fair, because overall, during the day, if she was like, acting a certain way all the time, I could see how that build up could happen. But this is very situational, when she acts out, and it feels very intentional, of like, something is legitimately hurting, scaring or making her anxious, and it's not fair to, like, gaslight her.
Chrissy 26:08
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, it's a level of emotional maturity, you know, it's a level for the for the human to learn how to do this. It's a level of self regulation. It's regulating your emotions and having that emotional IQ, and that takes practice of learning how to do that and let your system settle as well, as well as your dog's system.
Jamie 26:34
No, I think that's so true, and I think all the talk therapy in the world couldn't get you to a point of like how to emotionally regulate, as this process has with Winnie. I mean, I have my own, like, nervous system grounding techniques, and I think that, like, that's the point. The point is, is that, like, I need to make sure that I don't have kids. But it feels similar to, like, how can you possibly take care of your kids? If you're not taking care of yourself, you're coming from this dysregulated place of like having not showered or not feeling well or not eating, and how can you possibly give when your cup is empty? And so I think that that's been a really huge takeaway from me that I didn't even realize was happening.
Chrissy 27:11
Yeah, yeah. It's huge. So someone is feeling frustrated or unsure or disconnected from their dog, what would you say to them? I
Jamie 27:20
would say that you're not alone at all. I think that's the first thing, because it feels extremely isolating and extremely lonely. And I would say that it's gonna get better, and that the only way that it's gonna get better is that if you believe it's going to get better, and you're willing to put in the time and effort that it takes to make it get better. I'm not going to sugar coat it at all, like, again, I've been doing this with Winnie for like, eight years. But as you mentioned earlier, it comes and goes. It's not constant. And I'm so grateful for that. Like, I'm so grateful that we are at a point where we have this base foundation that the little things that come in if I can't, if I don't feel like I can handle it, I have you as a resource to reach out to, and you're able to kind of take that step out to see it as a third party. And that's what I think feels the most encouraging, is knowing that I am not alone in this, and that my view of it is going to be very different from someone who's trained in this and has worked with 1000s of dogs on wildly different spectrums over the course of however many years. Like it is so helpful to have that third party view, just like it is a mediator, it's so helpful to have a mediator, and that's what you act as. And with that, you're able to, kind of like, take a step out of the frustration of the situation and see it for what it is and how to fix it. Having someone like you, Chrissy, to repeat back, like, this is the issue that I seeing, and here are the steps that we're going to get to to be able to like, help with that is the first load off your shoulders, and then the second is, like, when you're ready to do the work, seeing how the first step is going to impact the last one, even if it feels pretty far off. And like, why are we doing this? Like, there are baby steps that you have to take, and you can't just jump to the end, because that's not how it works. Yeah,
Chrissy 29:14
yeah. A lot of people want to start at 100% and we, and you have to start at like 20% and work, yeah, 100% Yeah. That's Yeah, huge thing. It's huge. And
Jamie 29:28
I, one of the things that I've been in general, working on is just that idea of control, like we are not in control in this situation, in the sense of, like, we cannot change things immediately. We are working with another being that has its own their own mind and behaviors and traumas and body pain and issues that like it is not fair to just assume that the way that you're acting is a rebellion or is a like an act out there being that has emotions and. Those need to be addressed too.
Chrissy 30:01
Yeah, one of the biggest things we can do is have empathy and stand there, you know, like, be in their body, like, what are they experiencing? And have empathy for that, and look at it from that point of view, versus always from our own point of view. You need to look at your own needs and stuff and what's going on with yourself, but also it's so helpful to have empathy for another being and what they're going through. And
Jamie 30:27
I think that's exactly it. Like, I think that's the word. I've been trying. I've been like, talking around, but I think you're totally right. Like, I think I've learned empathy, and that has radiated out into my world in a way that I never expected. Yeah,
Chrissy 30:41
I think a huge thing if people do this, if you were to journal from the very beginning of when you got whatever, and then journaling to see what your journal looks like. Now that'd be so fascinating, right?
Jamie 30:53
It would be fascinating. And I actually, like, would highly recommend people do that, because in a similar way, I'll like, look back at our texts or our emails, and that's what feels kind of like a journal like situation. For me, it's so helpful to see how far we've come. I do think that, like, just as it is to see your as hard as it is to see your own self growth when it's written down or someone's able to re like, retell you the timeline, it's wildly different than how you remember things and the trajectory that you've gone. So I would recommend that for sure,
Chrissy 31:29
you don't realize how far you've gone, because in the moment, it seems like it's going to go on forever, and it's just taking forever. But then, you know, if you look back on it, like just how far you come is amazing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 31:43
yeah, I
Chrissy 31:44
agree. So last question for someone who's listening and who's on the fence about kind of starting this kind of journey with their dog, what would you tell them about the unexpected benefits or ripple effects that you've experienced beyond just training and behavior and improved behavior?
Jamie 32:01
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that like, as you peel the onion of layers of what's happening, like, there's more layers. And so I think that like, by getting when you more comfortable with being around dogs like that, had the benefits of being able to, like, have other dogs over, or run into dogs outside, were great. But then I think that, like, it's just like with us, like, once a wound is healed, there's a potential for another one to come up. So I think that's a an interesting ripple effect that I hadn't actually ever thought of before. And it's fascinating, like, it's, it's just like us, when you heal one thing you're moving on to, the next thing that that you're going to work on, and so not to feel like those are like guard rails or gates, because I think it's hard to do that. Like, what like? Why is there another issue I thought we fixed this, as opposed to having like you mentioned empathy over like you, we've now healed this wound. There's likely going to be another one that comes up and kind of being mentally ready for that. Ultimately, I felt so restricted in my world with Winnie for two years, if not a little bit more, and it has changed my life not to be, you know, in no way being dramatic or embellishing like it has fully changed my life. To be able to walk my dog with ease, to be able to handle situations that feel out of control with ease, to be able to communicate with her as well as I can, given there's a language barrier and and being able to have you as a resource that you can't find anything like this on your own, there are things worth investing in, and this work is one of them, as a way to change your whole world and the way you live your Life.
Chrissy 33:58
Beautiful. Well, well, thank you so much for coming on real quick and chatting with me about, yeah, I just felt like it was really important to talk about just understanding yourself and your dog can can make a big difference in your life. So thank you for coming on, yeah,
Jamie 34:15
thanks for having us and thank you for continuously being there for us throughout our dips and our ebbs and flows. Yes,
Chrissy 34:22
she's a sweet puppy. Okay, thanks, Jamie,
Unknown Speaker 34:26
yeah. Thanks. Chrissy, thank
Chrissy 34:28
you for joining us today. I hope you discovered a valuable nugget you can implement right away with your dog. If you enjoyed the episode, please follow, rate and share with fellow dog lovers who might benefit. Don't forget to take our How well do you know your dog quiz? You'll find the link in the show notes until next week. Happy tales. You.
